PATCH AND BUG Discussion

[Mad Russian]

While not wanting to get into the entire air support issue, there is a bug with at least one plane. The P-47 seems to want to drop bombs in sets of three. And they want to do it TWICE!! For a total of SIX bombs carried. Rockets I could see...I could see smoke trails coming with them too...but not six bombs.

Now while this is great if you are an American commander, AND...IF, the P-47 is not dropping all those bombs on you! It is a bit unrealistic. P-47's carried TWO 500# GP bombs. One under each wing. I have not encountered any other bugs with aircraft and wouldn't have reported this one except that I was playing the Germans at the time...

Panther Commander

[MarkEzra]

Exit rules don't seem to activate. I'm working on a scen where the attacking force is going to exit the opposite side of the map. I was using dynamic flags with "attack" set. When I play as attacker there are no units selected to gain points when exiting. I tried changing the flags to static but got the same results. Has this been noted by others?

[WWB]

Originally posted by MarkEzra:

Exit rules don't seem to activate. I'm working on a scen where the attacking force is going to exit the opposite side of the map. I was using dynamic flags with "attack" set. When I play as attacker there are no units selected to gain points when exiting. I tried changing the flags to static but got the same results. Has this been noted by others?

Did you set the forces to be eligible for exit points in the editor? The default is ineligible.

WWB

[Mark Gallear]

I have been updating my time-line of British equipment introduction dates on page 3.

This is the start of a time-line of British and Empire Aircraft in the Med (North and East Africa). As aircraft do not have an exact 3d model I assume it would be relatively easy to add in Gladiators make Hurricanes rare etc?

The game just has Hurricanes in a strafing role for the first months of the war, this is not representational – very few hurricanes available.

Source Richard Townshend Bickers The Desert Air War 1939-45 and an OOB on the Desert Airforce on the net.

June 1940

Very few Hurricanes I in forward squadron and 4 in Egypt.

Gladiator Fighter 253 mph 4 .303 inch MGs

Blenheim Mk IV Bomber 285mph, carry a bomb load of 1,000lb usually in 250lb bombs.

Blenheim Mk 1s were converted into fighters with installation of 4 .303 MGs under the nose, in addition to the forward-firing gun in the port wing and ear-firing MG in the dorsal turret.

Bombay Bomber/Transport Aircraft

Lysander reconnaissance planes, on at least one occasion used to drop 8 20lb bombs.

July

3 more Hurricanes arrive!

August

Monthly deliveries increased to 18 Blenheims and 18 Hurricanes

No 3 Royal Australian Air Force Squadron arrives

Gladiators

Lysanders

Gauntlets 230mph, two gun fighters to be used as makeshift dive bombers first used in December but then retired and replaced with Gladiators.

No 33 Squadron converted from Gladiators to hurricanes and handed them over to the Australians.

October

Blenheims and Gladiators sent to Greece.

No 2 Free French Flight sent to Palestine to convert to Hurricanes.

Add Gladiator to all British lists up until January 1941.

January 1941

Hurricanes more common RAAF equipped with them. On 12 May some 50 Hurricanes arrive.

Game shows Hurricane II fighter-bombers which is wrong.

April 1941

British

No. 73, No 274, No 6 Squadron Hurricane I, No 14, 45 and 55 Blenheim IV

South Africa

No. 24 (SAAF) Squadron Det. (Maryland, Fuka)

June 1941

Order of Battle

6 Squadron Lysander and Hurricane

14 Blenheim IV

30 Blenheim I

39 Maryland

24 SAAF Maryland

73 Hurricane

274 Hurricane

250 Kittyhawk

2 SAAF Tomahawk

1 SAAF Hurricanes

3 RAAF Tomahawks

For June 1941

Game shows correctly Kittyhawk but wrongly the Airocobra in British use. Should be no Hurricane IIs at this time.

South African Air Force does not show Tomahawk and Hurricane I correctly, but wrongly Airocobra and Kittyhawk.

Australian and French Airocobra and Kittyhawks are wrong. Australian had Tomahawks and presumably, the Free French still had Hurricane Is?

(I was taught English by the widow of the Airocobra testpilot!)

Oct 1941

British

Hurricane I, IIA/IIB Tomahawk, Beaufort I, Fuka, Blenheim IV

Game incorrectly shows Hurricane C and Airocorbra and Kittyhawk. Tomahawk is missing.

Australian

- No 451 (RAAF) Squadron (Sidi Barrani, Hurricane I, Tac.R.)

- No. 3 (RAAF) Squadron (Sidi Haneish, Tomahawk, S.E.-F.)

Game incorrectly shows Hurricane IIC, Airocobra and Kittyhawk. Tomahawk is missing.

South African

No. 2 (SAAF) Squadron (Sidi Haneish, Tomahawk, S.E.-F.)

- No. 1 (SAAF) Squadron (Maaten Baggush, Hurricane I/IIA/IIB, S.E.-F.)

- No. 4 (SAAF) Squadron (Sidi Haneish, Tomahawk, S.E.-F.)

No. 3 (SAAF) Wing (HQ at Maaten Baggush)

- No. 11 Squadron (Maaten Baggush, Blenheim IV, L.B.)

- No. 12 (SAAF) Squadron (El Daba, Maryland, L.B.)

- No. 21 (SAAF) Squadron (Qotafiya, Maryland, L.B.)

- - No. 24 (SAAF) Squadron - employed on reconnaissance until December 1941 (Fuka, Boston III, L.B.)

- No. 60 (SAAF) Flt. (Fuka, Maryland, Sur. R.)

Game incorrectly shows Hurricane IIC rather than IIA or IIB, also wrong shows Airocobra and Kittyhawk and misses Tomahawk.

No Polish Squadrons at this time. Free French are not listed in the squadron lists with armed planes?

November 1941

First Beaufighters arrive carry Six MGs, 4 20mm cannon and eight 60lb Rockets.

Squadron added a 7th MG for the navigator.

Could carry 2 – 250lb bombs

Add Beaufighter to British list.

Western Desert Air Force (WDAF), 26th May 1942

Britain

Hurricane I, Hurricane IIA/B, Hurricane IIC, Tomahawk, Baltimore I, Kittyhawk I, Wellington IC, Beaufighter IC, Albacore

Game incorrectly shows Spitfire when not yet in service, misses Tomahawk and Beaufighter but includes fictitious Airocobra.

Australian

Kittyhawk I

South Africa

Blenheim IVF, Hurricane I / Tomahawk, Boston III, Kittyhawk I

Game incorrectly has Hurricane IIC and misses the Tomahawk.

French?

- No. 821 (FAA) Squadron (Maaten Baggush, Albacore, T.B.)

- No. 826 (FAA) Squadron (Maaten Baggush, Albacore, T.B.)

French has Airocobra and Kittyhawk but no such Squadrons existed.

Western Desert Air Force (WDAF), 22nd June 1942

- Eleven Hurricane squadrons.

- Six Kittyhawk squadrons.

- One Spitfire squadron.

- Two Tomahawk squadrons.

- Two Beaufighter squadrons.

- One Hurricane squadron (T.R.).

- One Tomahawk squadron (T.R.)

- Two Boston squadrons.

§ One Blenheim squadron.

Britain

In the game Spitfires should join list at this date – Tomahawk still missing

Can find no separate New Zealand airforce or Free French?

No South African Spitfires at this time.

Western Desert Air Force (WDAF), 1st September 1942

Britain

Hurricane IIA, Tomahawk, Hurricane IIC, Hurricane IIB, Baltimore I, Kittyhawk I/II, Spitfire VB/C, Wellington IC/II, Beaufighter IC/VIF,

Game misses Hurricane IIA, Tomahawk and Beaufighter IC/VIF

Australia

Kittyhawk I

Game has no Australian list but New Zealanders with other aircraft apart from Kittyhawk?

South Africa

Hurricane II/IIB/IID, Kittyhawk I / II / III, Tomahawk, Boston III

No South African list

USA –USAAF

P-40 Kittyhawks II, B-25 Mitchell

No US list.

Game has French Planes?

Western Desert Air Force (WDAF), 27th October 1942

Britain

Hurricane I/IIA/B, Hurricane IIC, Hurricane IIE, Spitfire VB/C, Kittyhawk I/II/III, Baltimore I/II/III, Beaufighter IC/VIF, Wellington IC/II

Game misses Hurricane IIA/IIE, Tomahawk and Beaufighter IC/VIF and has fictitious Airocobra.

Australia

- No. 3 (RAAF ) Squadron (Kittyhawk II / III, S.E.-F. / F.B.)

Game has other aircraft apart from Kittyhawk.

South Africa

Boston III, Baltimore III/IIIA, Kittyhawk I, Spitfire VB/C , Hurricane IIA / B, Baltimore II / IIA, Mosquito II, Maryland

No South African list.

USA

P-40 Kittyhawk II / III, B-25 Mitchell III

Game has Free French and New Zealand Airforce but no US, Canadian or Polish list.

Canada

- No. 417 (RCAF) Squadron (Spitfire VB/C, S.E.-F.)

Poland

No. 145 Squadron - including Polish Flight - (Spitfire VB/C/IX, S.E.-F.)

On 21st July 1943 Western Desert Air Force was renamed Desert Air Force.

Desert Air Force, 3rd September 1943

Britain

Hurricane IIC / Spitfire VC/VIII/IX, Kittyhawk II, IV, Boston III/IIA, P-51 Mustang III

Beaufighter VIF on loan to USAAF

Game shows Hurricane IID and IV but no Squadrons of these, No Squadrons of Spitfire VB.

South Africa

P-38-5-A, Mosquito VI / IX, Spitfire VC / VIII/ IX, B-26 Marauder II, Baltimore IIIA/IV

Game shows Hurricane II and Kittyhawk when no Squadrons of these planes. Missingg Mosquito VI/IX. However Australia still had Kittyhawk?

Australia

No. 3 (RAAF) Squadron (Kittyhawk III, S.E.-F. / F.B.)

- No. 450 (RAAF) Squadron (Kittyhawk IV, S.E.-F. / F.B.)

Game misses Hurricane IIA, Tomahawk and Beaufighter IC/VIF

USA

P-40 Kittyhawk II/III, P-47 Thunderbolt

US list does not show Thunderbolt but wrongly the Lightning, Mustang and Airocobra.

Poland

- No. 318 (Polish) Squadron (authorized establishment: 16 Spitfire VB/C, S.E.-F. / F.B.)

Germany

January 1941

First planes of the Luftwaffe - Me110s arrive.

Joined by Ju87s, Ju88s and He111s

April 1941

First Me-109E arrive

July 1941 Germans finally show up late in the game!

Have Me-109

Me-110

Ju-87B

May 1942 first mention of ME109F and Italian Macchi 202

Italian lists are wrong and show every plane available during the time frame at once. Bi-plane available initially and slowly replaced with newer monoplanes. Need an Italian Plane Grog to sort it.

[ January 12, 2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[Waddy_04]

Hi,

I can't get my Brit arty spotters into any kind of vehicles. Been trying to make them ride Bren carriers, trucks etc. but they simply won't step in. Bugs me a bit, as I'd love to keep the spotters in the front of my armoured columns...

Has anyone else noticed the same problem or is it just me?

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Waddy_04:

Hi,

I can't get my Brit arty spotters into any kind of vehicles. Been trying to make them ride Bren carriers, trucks etc. but they simply won't step in. Bugs me a bit, as I'd love to keep the spotters in the front of my armoured columns...

Has anyone else noticed the same problem or is it just me?

What size are they? They may be too big to be carried.

Panther Commander

[Waddy_04]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Waddy_04:

Hi,

I can't get my Brit arty spotters into any kind of vehicles. Been trying to make them ride Bren carriers, trucks etc. but they simply won't step in. Bugs me a bit, as I'd love to keep the spotters in the front of my armoured columns...

Has anyone else noticed the same problem or is it just me?

What size are they? They may be too big to be carried.

Panther Commander </font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Waddy_04:

Hi,

I can't get my Brit arty spotters into any kind of vehicles. Been trying to make them ride Bren carriers, trucks etc. but they simply won't step in. Bugs me a bit, as I'd love to keep the spotters in the front of my armoured columns...

Has anyone else noticed the same problem or is it just me?

Are they wire or radio spotters? If the former, it is not a bug, but a feature, introduced with CMBB.

[flamingknives]

What is a bug is that some Brit Arty spotters are listed as having a radio, but don't (their speed is slow and they cannot embark)

[Waddy_04]

Ahh... I see. Thanks mates! Tried the game today and you both are correct. Some of the blokes with radios listed can embark, but not all. I guess those who cannot embark are then those who don't really have the radios after all...

[rune]

P-47 could and indeed did carry three bombs, it could carry up to 2500 pounds of weapons. usual load was 1 500 pounder under each wing, but it could, and did also carry a third under the fuselage. They also could carry rockets at the same time. Here is a picture with the belly shackle.

http://www.aviation-history.com/republic/p47.html

Cost fo a P-47 was 85,000 dollars. Wish I had the money back then.

Rune

Obviously if dropping 6 bombs something is wrong...

[SFJaykey]

Maybe some of the British radio spotters who are slow and can't embark just have really big radios? Have you seen what some of the early war sets looked like?

IIRC some spotters carried their big radio in a carrier or truck that remained out of LOS while the spotters went forward, dragging wire to the radio. Maybe that's what these spotters are modelling?

[WWB]

Originally posted by SFJaykey:

Maybe some of the British radio spotters who are slow and can't embark just have really big radios? Have you seen what some of the early war sets looked like?

IIRC some spotters carried their big radio in a carrier or truck that remained out of LOS while the spotters went forward, dragging wire to the radio. Maybe that's what these spotters are modelling?

Nice expalantion, but it is a bug. They should not have the (radio) in the name.

WWB

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by SFJaykey:

Maybe some of the British radio spotters who are slow and can't embark just have really big radios? Have you seen what some of the early war sets looked like?

IIRC some spotters carried their big radio in a carrier or truck that remained out of LOS while the spotters went forward, dragging wire to the radio. Maybe that's what these spotters are modelling?

No.18 set would have been standard; they were man portable. No. 38 sets were really small, but usually used for platoon communication within a company or company-to-battalion comms. Don't know how commonly used by FO(O)s they were, probably not very?

WWB is correct. There are a couple of weird things, such as the Canadian graphic used for British tanks that I reported in post 1.

[Kitty]

I've noticed when I'm playing PBEM that there's this one Canadian dude that's always whining that he can't find my FSSF forces and telling me to "fight like a man," and getting all paranoid that about feint attacks. Is this realistic or is it a bug? Either way it's REALLY annoying and needs to be FIXED (you interpret that as you please). =)

Kitty

[JonS]

In addition to the stuff I posted on p.1:

* late war CW Bns (British, South African, Canadian, New Zealand, Polish) in CMAK come complete with 6 Wasps. This is good (although 6 might be a few too many), but the number in the Carrier Pn should be reduced by a similar amount - the Wasps were made up from kits fitted to existing Carrier Pn vehicles, not additional vehicles.

* Second point deleted 'cos I'm a dolt. Sorry for any confusion.

Regards

JonS

[ January 10, 2004, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SFJaykey:

Maybe some of the British radio spotters who are slow and can't embark just have really big radios? Have you seen what some of the early war sets looked like?

IIRC some spotters carried their big radio in a carrier or truck that remained out of LOS while the spotters went forward, dragging wire to the radio. Maybe that's what these spotters are modelling?

No.18 set would have been standard; they were man portable. No. 38 sets were really small, but usually used for platoon communication within a company or company-to-battalion comms. Don't know how commonly used by FO(O)s they were, probably not very?

</font>

[Mark Gallear]

Originally posted by JonS:

In addition to the stuff I posted on p.1:

* late war CW (British, South African, Canadian, New Zealand, Polish) in CMAK come complete with 6 Wasps. This is good (although 6 might be a few too many), but the number in the Carrier Pn should be reduced by a similar amount - the Wasps were made up from kits fitted to existing Carrier Pn vehicles, not additional vehicles.

Regards

JonS

I would not have thought Wasps were part of the standard British Battalion and I suspect would have been lumped together in one specialist unit.

Anyway as I have pointed out they appear in British Battalion long before the correct date for them appearing separately in he QB list.

Fairly certain the limited numbers would have limited them to British list only?

Edited in Answer to Michael Dorosh - do not want to appear arrogant but I found a date of February 1945 for the introduction of the Wasp to this theatre this matches the QB date. However, the Battalion formation has them before this date, which must be wrong.

The British army was not that keen on flamethrowers anyway and the number delivered from memory seemed limited - I will check again I was looking only for the date not numbers or unit.

There was more than one type of Wasp - the original British version had the tanks inside - a Canadian innovation was to have them outside and on the rear, so that the vehicle could be used as a normal Uni Carrier. The British Army later adopted this design. (To confuse the issue there was an earlier Uni Carrier flamethrower made in some numbers [ie thousands] but as far as I am aware never used in combat.)

Not sure which type was delivered to the British Army in Italy - my guess as Italy was a backwater, the original version now obsolete in NW Europe. (The British Army does not bin anything if it can help it.)

Could be wrong and will check but never ever seen Wasps represented in a standard British Army Battalion structure before I saw the CMAK version.

As for what went on in the Canadian Army - no idea, it is possible. You tell me.

Edited again with additional Information.

In "Churchill's Desert Rats" Patrick Delaforce - in April 1945 2 RTR was equipped with Churchill AVRE and Wasps - to form an Italian unit with similiar capabilities to NW Europe's 79th Armoured Division Hobart’s Funnies. This does not fit in with the idea that they were farmed out to Infantry Battalions. They would have provided units to other formations as needed to deal with bunkers etc.

Out of interest - 7th Armoured Brigade also a troop orgainization of a 17pdr and two 76mm Shermans to deal with the 40 Tigers and 35 Panthers that Kesselring had in the area. Not seen this structure before.

105mm Shermans were used only in Italy by the British and would have been orgaized as the CS section of 2 tanks per squadron. (Which is what you described at the Regimental level - the game is wrong on this issue.) I has not seen evidence that other Empire (Commonwealth) units had them as well - so that is new.

[ January 10, 2004, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[Mark Gallear]

I would like to request that the British North African list should start in June not November. There was continous combat from this date.

(I will add equipment introduction dates to the page 3 list.)

(The only problem with this is that the silly Rolls Royce ACs last longer!)

I would also request moving back the arrival of the Germans in July 1941 :eek: to maybe March 1941 (Rommels first operation?). (Luftwaffe arrives in January 1941.) I will go with what the German grogs think.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

]I would not have thought Wsps were part of the standard British Battalion and I suspect would have been lumped together in one specialist unit.

If you're not sure of something, please get confirmation before speculating here. WASPs were not purpose built vehicles, they were produced from standard Carriers using kits. I have an original report from Canadian Military Headquarters giving the vehicle state of the entire Canadian Army (Overseas) that breaks this down by vehicle type, and does discuss the issue of WASP kits. JonS is correct. The WASPs were part of the standard infantry battalion War Establishment.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

Fairly certain the limited numbers would have limited [Wasps] to British list only?

No, the Canadians had them (apparently - cheers Michael), as did the Kiwis. Not sure about the Yarpies and the Polacks - but since BFC have given them Wasps anyway, everything that follows applies to them too.

Regards

JonS

[ January 09, 2004, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

Fairly certain the limited numbers would have limited [Wasps} to British list only?

No, the Canadians had them (apparently - cheers Michael), as did the Kiwis. Not sure about the Yarpies and the Polacks.

Regards

JonS </font>

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Blah blah blah

Send me a turn! :mad:

Kitty

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I did find this, however,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Towards the end of the year (1944) Shermans mounting 105-mm guns were issued to the Canadian Forces in Italy on a proposed scale of six per (armoured) regiment (CMHQ file 24/Reports/1/3: S.D.(W), Memorandum, 4 May 45)

</font>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I did find this, however,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Towards the end of the year (1944) Shermans mounting 105-mm guns were issued to the Canadian Forces in Italy on a proposed scale of six per (armoured) regiment (CMHQ file 24/Reports/1/3: S.D.(W), Memorandum, 4 May 45)

</font>