PATCH AND BUG Discussion

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by von Lucke:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Monty:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by von Lucke:

Well, since most of the major stuff I've already mentioned is here, I'll throw in two little graphical errors:

The US sniper is holding a M1 Garand instead of the M1903 Springfield.

AFAIK this is not mistake.

Combat Mission have only Sharpshooters, so NO Snipers.

Thats why you see the Garand, its a guy with good eyes and a normal Garand who is good for spotting enemy units in front of the other forces, and scare/kill a few tank commanders too.

Monty </font>

[SgtMuhammed]

Originally posted by MAsta_KFC:

I'm surprised noone has mentioned this yet.

PANZERSHRECK/BAZOOKA/FAUST firing indoors-no surpression bug!!!

Please Fix!! :mad:

This is actually possible if you assume (and we all know what that means) that they are firing in a concert hall or something. Seriously though, it is possible if you can say that the building has been prepared ahead of time.

Anyway this is the first real possible "bug" that I have noticed. Backblast is a real bitch.

[imported_Wildman]

One thing I would like looked at is the inability of infantry to fire until they "rotate" to face the enemy.

The problem is the rotation speed is very slow. Example: I have an infantry squad 5m from a road in trees. Three (3) Pz IIIJs come screaming down the road and the squad with three anti-tank weapons doesn't fire as its rotation speed can't keep up.

While I understand aiming with bazooka and fausts would show in this type of behavior, but hand-held grenades?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've seen this behavior in all three games. Generally, infantry are assumed a 360 degree firing arc to simulate the human bodies ability to quickly reface, aim and fire.

Just for investigation...I have the save file to show exactly what I'm talking about.

[Dobie2]

Is it possible to create units for LRDG and SAS patrols? I know it's fairly easy to simulate these units with a crack Rifle 40 squad, but it doesn't quite feel right. Having a proper LRDG unit in the TOE would be much better, with perhaps some new graphics depicting Arab headress and sandles maybe?

Also, maybe you could add new vehicles like the LRDG chevey 30cwt and vickers k armed jeep. For completeness sake.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Dobie2:

Is it possible to create units for LRDG and SAS patrols? I know it's fairly easy to simulate these units with a crack Rifle 40 squad, but it doesn't quite feel right. Having a proper LRDG unit in the TOE would be much better, with perhaps some new graphics depicting Arab headress and sandles maybe?

Also, maybe you could add new vehicles like the LRDG chevey 30cwt and vickers k armed jeep. For completeness sake.

But the game is "Combat Mission" not "Commando Mission"... :confused:

Sandles and burnooses is going a bit far afield, can we please stick with serious deficiencies for now?

Do we really need to have "important" changes put off while BFC develops a 3D model for bare feet and sandals? SAS represents maybe 1/10 of 1 percent of all the soldiers represented in the game....let's get real.

[ December 22, 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Mad Russian]

Location fires bug me. There is no suppression or negative effects of being in a fire location...you can't order someone to move in there so it must be bad but as long as you are there when the fire starts you just sit there roasting your hot dogs and marshmellows and have a grand old time. I would like fire to be the serious threat to life and limb that it is when I try to order a squad anywhere near it on foot. Rather than the steam room it is at the moment.

Panther Commander

[Mark Gallear]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Canadian Armour

Churchills were never used by Canadians in action during the CMAK timeframe and should be deleted entirely from the selection screens.

Is this true - 1st Canadian Army Tank Brigade was equipped with Churchills in Sicily - they were mainly in reserve but some squadrons saw action. :confused:

Cannot find a link directly proving this - but one of the pdf documents on this page lists the units actions. Not sure what they were equipped with and if Churchills what type?

http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh/history_archives/engraph/cmhq_e.asp?cat=1

I have already made clear that I am very unhappy with many of the things in the British and Commonwealth organization not sure it is worth while pointing them all out in detail again, on such a serious thread as this but here goes ...

A Short List of the Main points! REVISED

(Most of these early points refer to North Africa as I am not even sure what battles and units are involved in the East Africa theatre.)

The weapon icons showing right weapon - not just Besa for everything so A9 has Vickers and A10 has Besa mgs, 2 guns on Churchill 1 etc.

Infantry Battalion - very poor with loads of mistakes.

Like option with scout platoon in carriers and without - this should go all the way through. For Battalions in defence, etc.

No guns in Battalion until Alamein. (For commonwealth - South Africans option of 2pdrs or 18pdrs.) This would be a good date for the Boys AT rifle to disappear, including carrier version. No AA guns in battalion period. PIATS should appear before they do.

(Revised - There should be no platoon of Uni Carriers with Boys AT rifle as these merely represent ad hoc vehicles with the gun being fired from under armour.)

(Revised- just found the motorized company - this would be refred to as Lorried Infantry Company. It has Bren guns get rid of them because the Platoon used trucks. [There are not enough to mount the whole company anyway.] I will look up the composition, some Companies by 1944 would be using US halftracks, and very big trucks were used in 1944 that could hold a full platoon and had two drivers so they could move all day and night if necessary.)

(The addition of a MG company, would also be accurate and benificial for QB battles).

Will discuss this subject further and in full detail if asked!

Please import 37mm Bofors AT gun from Finish CMBO list used as "Bofors 2pdr AT gun" for about first 6 months of Desert war.

(Revised -. This gun is actually present as Bofors 37mm but appears in January - you fooled me ! According to Churchill's Desert Rats 2 by P Delaforce, the gun was present before the war started so should appear in December. (Not sure why, presumably some were bought before 2pdr went into service in 1938 for this unit.) According to written source only AT gun mentioned but found a photo of 2pdr allegedly before war began. Of course it could me much later but if true then "Bofors 2pdr" most common AT gun and make 2pdr very rare for first three months then the other way round.)

Missing Morris CS9/LAC AC - could use Marmon-Harrington 3D model! (Yes, I'm that desperate!)

Rolls Royce is the original unaltered version.

If possible change to type used by 11th Hussars - take turret off put an open top armoured box round it - crew 4 armament Boys and Bren.

If not how about RAF Fordson version - with hole in turret on left side for Boys AT gun plus Lewis AA gun. (At least it would be historical!) Have pictures if needed. They disappear as soon as the M-H appears!

Marmon-Harrington gun in the 3d model is far to big it is just a Boys AT Rifle please correct. Any chance of doing a correct 3d representation of types with Italian guns? Please correct the icons to show correct weapons!

CS-Troop "Platoon" has 2 tanks not 3 or 4! This mistake goes right the way through.

NO LEE - get rid.

Right versions of Shermans at Alamein - mostly type II - will look up figures and types if asked. Its first appearance - check arrival times and numbers for rest of time line - looked wrong to me in a number of places - I give a link to a document showing British tank types and numbers through out the Italian campaign for this in an earlier post.

.30 AA MGs on Sherman, option on Shermans at Alamein - not all units used them - probably just troop commander in the few units that did. Practised died out after about 3-4 months. NO MORE AA MGS on British and Commonwealth Shermans after that.

No 2pdr HE, 6pdr HE January 1944 for AT guns only.

Please do the Vickers and Crusader AA tanks. Have introduction and end dates if needed. (I would organize Platoon in section of 2)

Where is the Churchill III? First appearance at Alamein. Could do with checking the arrival dates of the other types.

Loads, loads more points :eek: !

Sergi - NO YOU cannot fire 2pdrs and 6pdrs from moving trucks unless you have computer controlled stabilization if you do more chance of hitting yourself !

Revised Noticed that Matilda III CS appears in April and there is no Vickers VIC with 15mm Besa. This may be accurate, will check.

Matilda III start date is correct - cannot find an account saying if the VIC was present in the Desert. There was only one troop per Squadron so we are talking about 3-4 tanks!

Vickers VIB is organized in Troops of 4 while all others are in 3. Pre-war paper organization called for a troop of 4. After France number of troops in a squadron were cut. Unofficially number of tanks in troop also reduced to 3. This may be more consistent and accurate.

[ January 07, 2004, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[Sarge]

with regard to supressive fire:

in addition to being made 'somewhat'more effective, i'd like to see the 'cover arc' have a "suppressive fire arc"... granted, the larger the area the less effective, but at least more than a single 'point' ~

however, all-in-all a most satisfying product, dontcha think? even the requests here are minor points (for the most)

Sarge!

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Wildman:

One thing I would like looked at is the inability of infantry to fire until they "rotate" to face the enemy.

The problem is the rotation speed is very slow. Example: I have an infantry squad 5m from a road in trees. Three (3) Pz IIIJs come screaming down the road and the squad with three anti-tank weapons doesn't fire as its rotation speed can't keep up.

While I understand aiming with bazooka and fausts would show in this type of behavior, but hand-held grenades?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've seen this behavior in all three games. Generally, infantry are assumed a 360 degree firing arc to simulate the human bodies ability to quickly reface, aim and fire.

Just for investigation...I have the save file to show exactly what I'm talking about.

Wildman, AIUI infantry does not need to change facing to use AT weapons. I have certainly seen fausts fired in a different direction from the main targetting of the squad, and I assume it works the same for hand-delivered AT weapons. The reason why your squad did not use its AT weapons could be entirely different.

Maybe it would be best to have this discussion elsewhere, but on the face of it, I do not think it is a bug, and therefore is in the wrong thread here.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

Cannot find a link directly proving this - but one of the pdf documents on this page lists the units actions. Not sure what they were equipped with and if Churchills what type?

http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh/history_archives/engraph/cmhq_e.asp?cat=1

I thought 1 CAB reequipped with Shermans before Sicily, and only 1 regiment served in Sicily with the other two joining the brigade in action on the mainland. The 1 CAB used Churchills at the time of Dieppe, and one regiment did take part in the Raid, but AFAIK no Churchills even in Sicily.

Even if they did use Churchills in Sicily, the option should be removed after Aug 1943.

Good list.

[Mark Gallear]

Michael Dorosh - I sort of sure you are right - the ?official document? I downloaded from the link on the above post says they requipped with RAMs from Churchills before Sicily, got to be a typo and the other way round?

My Feathersone "A wargamers guide to the Mediterranean Campaigns 1943-1945" says they had Churchills. He was there and I thought he was wrong about a number of things such as Churchill 1s in his tank list but has been proved right. How do we find out for sure? :confused:

Yes, it would be just a two month period?

[ December 22, 2003, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[Snarker]

In one game I'm playing, if I click on a crew "last known location" symbol I can see the number and type of weapon. This shouldn't be happening.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by von Lucke:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Monty:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by von Lucke:

Well, since most of the major stuff I've already mentioned is here, I'll throw in two little graphical errors:

The US sniper is holding a M1 Garand instead of the M1903 Springfield.

AFAIK this is not mistake.

Combat Mission have only Sharpshooters, so NO Snipers.

Thats why you see the Garand, its a guy with good eyes and a normal Garand who is good for spotting enemy units in front of the other forces, and scare/kill a few tank commanders too.

Monty </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

Location fires bug me. There is no suppression or negative effects of being in a fire location...you can't order someone to move in there so it must be bad but as long as you are there when the fire starts you just sit there roasting your hot dogs and marshmellows and have a grand old time. I would like fire to be the serious threat to life and limb that it is when I try to order a squad anywhere near it on foot. Rather than the steam room it is at the moment.

Not only that, but in Line of Defense I recently had a green squad that kept trying to crawl into a burning building. Every orders phase I kept canceling their auto-generated Sneak command, but at the start of the the next turn there it was again. The AI took the rubbled, burning building as the best cover around. Twits.

Michael

[SgtMuhammed]

I have noticed that fire seems to have somewhat random effects. I have seen an immobilized tank be abandoned when fire engulfed its area but then I have also seen the behavior you describe.

Is there any official effect written into the engine?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

Michael Dorosh - I sort of sure you are right - the ?official document? I downloaded from the link on the above post says they requipped with RAMs from Churchills before Sicily, got to be a typo and the other way round?

My Feathersone "A wargamers guide to the Mediterranean Campaigns 1943-1945" says they had Churchills. He was there and I thought he was wrong about a number of things such as Churchill 1s in his tank list but has been proved right. How do we find out for sure? :confused:

Yes, it would be just a two month period?

Churchills then Rams sounds reasonable. The Churchills were all British production (note the "T" numbers rather than "CT" on the hull sides). The Rams were Canadian production, and an excellent training vehicle for Sherman crews.

I'll check Canadian Shermans at home tonight (I am replying from work).

I also have Gwilym Jones' autobiography somewhere - he was in 1 CAB.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

There may have been cases where individual sharpshooters swapped their Springfields for Garands for personal reasons, but they would have had to give up the scope unless they could get their local ordnance shop to do a mod for them. The Springfield was official TO&E for sharpshooters.

Michael

Yes, this was exactly what happened in the first-person account I referenced above; the platoon scout got an ordnance guy go rig a mount for his Springfield scope on the Garand. He actually said he preferred the Springfield, but was sick of attracting fire from every German in the area every time he fired off a red tracer round with the Springfield.

I remember the story so well because it always confused me a bit. AFAIK, all major versions of the Garand and the Springfield are the same caliber (.30 - '06), so I don't understand why the soldier couldn't simply strip the Garand clips' ball ammo and reload the Springfield's clips. Maybe there's some other reason why this was impractical? :confused:

[MarkEzra]

Actual Bug Report: Infantry Climbing "Cliff" walls...ground floor set at 5 height set at 9. When it occurred at these settings I decreased the floor to 2 and raised adjacent height to 12 with the same results. Manual states height numbers skipped by three create cliffs...ie 1x4 or 7x10. Appears to be incorrect

[Mr. Tittles]

BAR as support weapon.

I brought this up in the BAR thread but will throw in here also.

The BAR can be purchased as a support weapon. Its a 2 man team like the MG34/42.

The only problem is that it has the same ammo and firepower as a squad BAR. It can not assault, advance or throw grenades, etc. Since it takes two men to operate, its actually inferior to the inherent BAR.

For those interested, see the BAR thread. Theres a Korean war vet contributing great info.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

BAR as support weapon.

I brought this up in the BAR thread but will throw in here also.

The BAR can be purchased as a support weapon. Its a 2 man team like the MG34/42.

The only problem is that it has the same ammo and firepower as a squad BAR. It can not assault, advance or throw grenades, etc. Since it takes two men to operate, its actually inferior to the inherent BAR.

For those interested, see the BAR thread. Theres a Korean war vet contributing great info.

Does it cost as much as a squad? If not, then what is the problem?

[Mr. Tittles]

A squad costs 40 points. A BAR team, 8 points.

Its ahistorical and technical issue really. Not a points issue.

The BAR is not a slow weapon.

I would love to see a foot race between a BAR team, BREN team and MG42 team (Given the other associated parts).

The BAR bipod was usually carried by the BAR assistant. The BAR does not have a spare barrel. The ammo is all either in the mags or pockets. No one is carrying luggage and bags, etc. The BAR 'team' have weapons in thier hands.

The assistant would have his own weapon and use it more than a MG42 or even a BREN assistant would.

To have a BAR that can not assault or advance is not in the spirit of the weapon.

To me, people should be able to buy MP44 teams or grenade launcher riflemen if they purchase BARs.

[ December 23, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks for expanding on that; I agree with your assessment.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

He actually said he preferred the Springfield, but was sick of attracting fire from every German in the area every time he fired off a red tracer round with the Springfield.

I remember the story so well because it always confused me a bit. AFAIK, all major versions of the Garand and the Springfield are the same caliber (.30 - '06), so I don't understand why the soldier couldn't simply strip the Garand clips' ball ammo and reload the Springfield's clips. Maybe there's some other reason why this was impractical? :confused:

He wouldn't even have to strip Garand clips, would he? I thought the ammo was also issued loose (actually boxed).

Equally :confused: .

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Just got a setup for Tally Ho.

British armour (in this case, Sherman V) get clicked on, but the unit portrait shows the Canadian flag instead of the British flag.

EDIT to add - this only applies to the Sergeants; the platoon commanders (Lieutenants) do have the British flag.

[ December 23, 2003, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Mr. Tittles]

Garand clips were stocked at dumps in 8 round clips. I believe the 'clips' were not gathered up typically and reloaded. They were expendable items. The 8 round clips are usually transported about in bandoliers. These were also used for tourniquets, tying up prisoners , etc after use. A runner could go back to a supply dump and drape quite a few of these bandoliers over his shoulder.

MGs had loading devices and someone filled a hopper and another person cranked a lever and thats how the belts were loaded. This also was probably done at the supply/dump level and not in the front lines below battalion level.

BARs and Springfields probably used stripper clips. This is a piece of metal that allows the magazines to be quickly loaded and the metal falls away after loading. It does not go into the weapon like the Garand 'clip' does.

[ December 23, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]