Bogdan Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Hello all, Just for my information, is the Cullin's "edge cutter" device handled in CMAK ? If yes, when and where does it affect US tanks ? Thanks for any answer 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tondu Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Wasn't that used at Normandy after D-Day? Sorry, I don't think it was ever used in Africa, Crete or Italy...... Maybe for CMx2 ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 It is included in all allied tanks from July '44 on. There is no graphic of the cutter themselves, just like in CMBO, but instead the tanks are given the capability to cross tall hedges (Bocage in CMAK). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 Thank you Sorry, I wasn't very clear in my last post. I plan to make some Normandy scenario/operation in CMAK, instead of the ol'CMBO... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tifosi Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 I rmember reading somewhere that the ´cutter was something that crews had to come up with themeselves. It was created by a tanker after seeing a half dozen sherms wasted while trying to plough through hedgerows in France. North Africa was pretty much over by the time it was made (late ´44), but I don´t actually know if it was used in Italy at all. Not as many centuries-old lumps of hedge there though as in NW Europe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Of course though its in the game (from July?) for the Normandy scenario players it's not applicable for Italy, and sometimes the 'Culin' feature for U.S. tanks can be a big annoyance when playing an Italy scenario as the Germans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Curiously enough, a very similar device was dreamed up almost simultaneously by the 2nd Armored Division. It is possible that they were aware of the experiments by the 747th Tank Battalion, as these had been demonstrated to a number of officers. The division's cavalry unit, the 102nd Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron, had been discussing ways to cut through the hedges. Sgt. Curtis G. Culin devised a set of prongs not very different from Green's Tank Bumper, and supervised the construction of a prototype using salvaged German tank obstacles. Tests with the device proved very successful, and it was dubbed the Rhinoceros. It received many other names including the Culin cutter, hedgerow prongs, hedgerow cutters, and various combinations of these. Tanks fitted with the device were dubbed Rhino tanks. What separated Culin's device from other similar schemes was a bit of luck. On 14 July, the First Army commander, Gen. Omar Bradley visited the 2nd Armored Division prior to Operation Cobra. Bradley had seen an earlier demonstration of the Salad Fork, but was more impressed by the Culin Rhino since it didn't require explosives. He ordered the First Army Ordnance Section to begin construction of as many of these devices on an emergency basis.from missing-lynx.com 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 There was another device—possibly the "salad fork" referred to above, though I haven't heard that name applied to it before. It consisted of two pieces of sturdy pipe attached to the front of a tank. The tank was driven forward, driving the pipe into the berm like a horizontal posthole digger. Then the tank was reversed, leaving two holes. Into these holes accompanying engineers placed explosive charges of a suitable size, the holes tamped, and the charges detonated, creating a hole in the hedgerow of a size sufficient to drive vehicles through. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Michael Emrys, The "salad fork" was a new one to me, too, until I read the relevant section on bocage busting in Doubler's CLOSING WITH THE ENEMY. Bogdan, While Culin got the credit, someone posted an account which names another guy who came up with the hedgerow cutter, but the other guy never did anything with his idea, while Culin recognized a great idea and ran with it. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Originally posted by John Kettler: Michael Emrys, The "salad fork" was a new one to me, too, until I read the relevant section on bocage busting in Doubler's CLOSING WITH THE ENEMY.That's where I got my information as well. Possibly the most interesting chapter in a very good book. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Wennerberg Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 What about the CMAK hedge vs. the CMBO hedge? Are both the same or is the CMBO hedge much thicker. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Originally posted by Stefan Wennerberg: What about the CMAK hedge vs. the CMBO hedge? Are both the same or is the CMBO hedge much thicker. In game terms, they're identical. They just have a different name: bocage in CMBO; tall hedge in CMAK. I think (just my guess) the folks at BFC put it in so people could still construct Normandy scenarios (nice guys). This is consistent with having the Cullin cutters take effect in July '44. For scenario designers, the practical solution is to set a scenario in June '44 or before (even if it historically happened later) if you don't want the Cullin cutters. Set it in July '44 or after, if you do want them. BTW, one thing I remember from Doubler's CLOSING WITH THE ENEMY is that sometimes the tanks fitted with pipes took out the bocage even without the explosive charges. The pipes alone were sufficient. I'm not sure if I'm remembering it right that this suggested to Cullin that cutters would work even better. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Bolt Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Originally posted by Tifosi: I rmember reading somewhere that the ´cutter was something that crews had to come up with themeselves. It was created by a tanker after seeing a half dozen sherms wasted while trying to plough through hedgerows in France. North Africa was pretty much over by the time it was made (late ´44), but I don´t actually know if it was used in Italy at all. Not as many centuries-old lumps of hedge there though as in NW Europe. I've read that the steel used in the cutters came from anti-landing craft steel beams the Germans had left on the Normandy beaches. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Kettler: Michael Emrys, The "salad fork" was a new one to me, too, until I read the relevant section on bocage busting in Doubler's CLOSING WITH THE ENEMY.That's where I got my information as well. Possibly the most interesting chapter in a very good book. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Pies Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Ambrose mentions the "Salad Fork" in D-Day and the same excerpt appears in The Victors. He doesn't name it as such though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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