King Tigers in the Ardenne?

[Richie]

I'm trying to varify if any the King Tigers of SS Panzer Abteilung 501 attached to Kampfgruppe Peiper actually reached Stoumont. Clearly they reached La Gleize... but did any of them actually see action in Stoumont?

Information from here details every tank destroyed by the 90mm's of the 143rd as King Tigers... but I find this unlikely.

Information from here lists no King Tigers taking part in the actual assault on Stoumont.

Does anyone have any documentation of their use at Stoumont? :confused:

Cheers, Richie

[samurai man]

I think so. Peiper's forces were assembled in La Gleize for the assault on Stoumont. According to this, two king tigers were destroyed in the assault.

"One of the two 90-mm. antiaircraft guns also did yeoman service in the unfamiliar ground-laying role and destroyed two tanks from Peiper's heavy Mark VI battalion before the German infantry got in close enough to force its abandonment." http://www.ehistory.com/wwii/books/bulge2/0340.cfm

According to this, General Harrison warned about "the real picture" in Stoumont. "The Germans have big tanks, so tanks have been of no help to us." Further, Harrison told Hobbs, he would advise against continuing the attack on the morrow: "That place [stoumont] is very strong." http://www.ehistory.com/wwii/books/bulge2/0365.cfm

[JonS]

This would seem to say 'yes'. However, given it was published in 1965, and the well known 'every tank is a Tiger' syndrome ... who knows

[Richie]

Thanks guys, that does appear to be the same text and is very detailed.

I wonder though if it does suffer from 'Tiger-itis'... :confused:

Another item I've read states, "There are no records or photographs to prove that the Tiger II's frontal armor was ever penetrated in combat." from Achtung Panzer.

Mind you, I've had a 90mm pop through a KT's front turret before in gaming...

[JasonC]

I investigated this in some detail (though not exhaustively, to be sure) a while ago. Please excuse me if the results are sketchy, as I am going from memory about what I found, rather than a new investigation or actual records kept of the old one.

Some report a whole Tiger battalion with Peiper, but this seems to be an error. Only one company went with the column. (The endpoint proof of this is loss data. The whole spearhead as cut off eventually. Some men who abandoned vehicles made it out on foot, but the vehicles were left behind. But the parent Tiger unit in question did not lose anything like all its tanks. One company did. One company also fits with typical practice at the time, how the Tiger battalion in each Panzer corps was usually "tasked").

It apparently started the march with 14 King Tigers. They were not in the lead - a pair of Panthers led the whole KG - apparently because of road speed and especially bridging issues. They constantly had to look not only for bridges, but bridges strong enough to take one of these. They sometimes had problems finding bridges strong enough to take a Panther.

One platoon of them was left along the line of march to hold open one of the villages. And was KOed from ambush by a US towed 76mm ATG unit. An attempt to retake that village failed when US aircraft intervened. 4 KTs were lost on this one occasion.

There are reports of at least 2 KTs knocked out farther up at the head of the column, by US 90mm. After that, there is at least one report of KTs in action at the head of the column. Including driving infantry out of stone buildings with point blank fire (far too close for mis ID to be likely).

There are reports of US Shermans used against the head of the column failing because they could not deal with German heavies along narrow roads, where there was no room to maneuver for flank shots and numbers didn't help. KTs might have been used for that, though even Panthers might have done it.

When the column was eventually boxed in, KT armor would not really help a breakout. Physical roadblocks, blown trees, and AT mines across the limited road net - plus multiple weapons threatening point blank side shots, were the "sealing agents". Not even KTs could run such blocks.

By the end, fuel was very limited. Peiper had to decide about repositionings of small numbers of his tanks. And in the end all the remaining vehicles were abandoned. I suspect that roughly half of the KTs were still intact at that point. Some of the remaining ones may not have been in running order, however (mechanical breakdowns). A few probably were, but without gas.

I hope this helps.

[ June 03, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Richie]

Thanks, it does, but nothing I've read confirms it from the German perspective...

It's not that I doubt the honesty of the guys there... it's just that if a tank poked it's gun through the window of the building I was hiding in I'd probably swear it was a bloody Tiger too!

According to La Gleize King Tiger, 6 were lost there alone due to abandonment. You've detailed the loss of 4 others, with the reported loss of two more... If theres 14... 2 to go?

Did that 90mm AA gun knock out two 'Tigers' though? It is plausable...

[samurai man]

I think that's correct that only about a company kept pace with Peiper. I've also read that a number of the stragglers (those that did not have mechanical breakdowns and could still get fuel) joined combat with Kamfpgruppe Knittel and Sandig though I don't know how to confirm this.

[McAuliffe]

Hi,

It happens, that I just designed a huge CMAK operation map - for those that know the area- stretching out from the east (Borgoumont) to the west (Targnon), over 4 km, based on a topographic 1:25.000 scale map.

In the south, it includes the village of Cheneux, scene of dramatic close combat fighting during the attack of the 82nd. paratroopers.

I am trying now to figure out how you can set up playable game against the AI on such a map.

I was studying the order of battle in the various stages of the battle for the pocket of La Gleize-Stoumont and used the local museum brochure as a source. 7 KT's were left behind in La Gleize. None of them were found in Stoumont.

From what I have read and saw on pictures, some of them were active during the battle for the Sanatorium of Stoumont giving support from the hamlet of Roua, just north-east of Stoumont. Apparently, they were able to make it back to the center of La Gleize. A couple of the abandonned KT's were found on the acces roads via Borgoumont and on the highway leading up to the village of La Gleize. 2 were defending the farm of Werimont (south of La Gleize) One of these -commanded by Döllinger- was later recovered and placed on the market square. Other KT's were destroyed or abandonned during the attack on Stavelot and on the road between Stavelot and Trois-Ponts. Although many sources, say that 45 KT's started the campaign, I hardly can believe that and tend to stick to the number of 14 as stated above.

BTW, Is there anyone anyone that wants to try to test play the operation map? Unfortunately, I had to replace the KT's by the 'ordinary' ones. :mad:

[Måkjager]

"Jochen Peiper- Commander Panzer Regiment Leibstandarte" by Patrick Agte gives KG Peiper with the following vehicles operational and fuelled -

6 Kingtigers

19 Panthers

6 Panzer IVs and lots of SPWs.

The lead Panther into Stoumont was #223 commanded by SS Rottenfuhrer franz Prahm.

Quote" we took several hits from anti tank guns one after the other from the direction of the church. This jammed our turret. While i ( gunner) was trying to aim the gun at the antitank gun , despite the jamming we were hit from our left by an anti tank gun shell in the engine compartment. Then the tank began to burn"

From the 143rd site - "0730, Gun 2 which was emplaced in Stoumont, engaged a Mark VI tiger tank at a range of 40 yards, knocking it out and setting it afire with seven rounds. The crew of the tank were completely destroyed."

That to me sounds like the same engagment.

It was Panthers that the US forces ko'ed..not Kingtigers.

It also states that La Gleize was covered to the north and northeast by the 6 Kingtigers of sSS.PzAbt 501

Looking at "Michael Wittman and the Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte" also by Patrick Agte on p.511 it states "none of the Tigers had been committed to the attack on Stoumont". It also gives 6 KTs being in La Gleize at that time.

Hope this helps

regards

Måkjager

[jwxspoon]

Eric, having played your previous CMBO scenarios, I want to be first in line to help test!

Jeff

[Watson & Crick]

McAuliffe,

If the scenario (or op) is not too large, I'll give it a go.

[aka_tom_w]

I know it was some time ago like two or three years but wasn't all this KT research also completed for ALL kinds of CMBO scenarios?

I recall finding three different versions of the Sanitorium and several CMBO versions of Stoumont Stavelot and La Gleize scenarios, and I am guessing that at least some of them may have researched this KT info.

Maybe check the CMBO archives or try to contact the designers of those CMBO scenarios featuring KG Peiper?

Just a thought.

I too am keen to look at that BIG operation Map or the area but I am sad to say I doubt I will have time to really get into it and play test it the way it deserves to be tested.

Keep up the Good Work!

-tom w

[Franko]

The Tigers did not make it to Stoumont. I did a big operation on this myself, several years ago. Panthers DID get there (in fact, two of them got smoked west of Stoumont, while they were trying to push out West of the Sanatorium). The other evidence suggests Panzer IVs were the other tanks. I can get exact info and break downs if you like. You could include Tigers as a "what if?" for the operation.

The Tigers were in the town "behind" Stoumont along Peiper's route: I think it was Stavelot. But then the Americans got in behind Peiper, and encircled Stavelot (largely), preventing the Tigers from reaching them. The Tigers were in the back of the column as rule (the column at one point stretched about 15 km!), because they were heavy, took up a lot of road, were slow, and were generally less reliable: if one broke down in the road, it was basically a pain in the butt to get it the hell out of the way.

Frank

[Richie]

McAuliffe, please send me the operation, I'd love to have a hand in play testing.

Size is not an issue!

rkrtmh@chariot.net.au

Thanks fellas for all your help. I tend to agree with the conclusion you draw Markjager. I think the 90mm took out Panthers rather than Tigers. I think in the Wolfram55 account of the battle it would have stated if any Tigers had taken part in the initial assault too.

It's far more likely that one lone 90mm would knock out 2 Panthers in quick succesion than 2 formidable King Tigers.

Richie

Boots and Tracks

[Richie]

Thanks Frank. I am more interested in historical fact. I was in the process of putting together a Stoumont based operation, but if McAuliffe is going to do it all then I'm more than happy to help him out if he'd like a play tester.

'Saves me sleepless nights and my wife won't complain either!

I have put together a mini campaign around the Cheneux area thats out testing now. McAuliffe, let me know if you'd like to take a look and I'll send it to you. I'd be happy for your input. There's nothing like an expert's eye on something...

[Hpt. Lisse]

Interesting what Richie notes about the 90mm penetrating the KT. The Achtung Panzer website had this to say...

"The crew was protected by thick sloping armor that made it a hard target, and only a few weapons were actually able to destroy it at even close range. There are no records or photographs to prove that the Tiger II's frontal armor was ever penetrated in combat. Its side armor was easier to penetrate by existing Allied armor (e.g. Sherman Firefly, T-34/85, JS-II)."

I've also read that only 20% of all KT's were destroyed by Allied AFV's/ATG's, the rest by air support/naval gunfire.

[Richie]

I'm actually citing the recollections of veterens of the 143rd AAA Battalion who state they knocked out two King Tigers in quick succession with their 90mm gun. I doubt this to be the case partially due to the reference you quote there (one I had already refered to) but also because I doubt there were any King Tigers there to be knocked out.

Please check my previous posts in this thread.

[McAuliffe]

With all my respect for the veterans but some of these recollections look a bit overcoloured. At Stoumont Station 2 panthers were knocked out by... a sherman, one of them was a fluke shot that ricocheted against the roadbed and penetrated the floor of the panther. A couple of HT's and an ambulance were found abandonned on the stretch from the station to Targnon. Besides, it was not snowing or no snow covered the ground. Actually, it was not that cold. However, at the time of the engagement at the station there was a thick fog.

Further to my previous post, I think that indeed no King Tiger took part in the attack of Stoumont on the 19th of December. However in the following days there was fierce fighting around the sanatorium and I recall seeing a picture of a KT firing from a prairie next to the hamlet of Roua in the direction of the Sanatorium. That was what the title of the picture was saying. For sure, I could not recognise the environment as the picture was very blurry and could be taken everywhere.

Richie I will send you my projects, glad you will take a look at it.

[samurai man]

McAuliffe, I too have been working on a huge 8km X 4km map, actually for a condenced Stoumont/Trois Ponts/La Gleize/ and Stavelot operation - that is condencing the wooded distances between towns to accomodate the reduced scale. I've been basing the map on many of the CMBO maps found at Belgian Combat Mission Scenario Page and the Scenario Depot as well as topigraphical maps and was designing this as a two player German assault so that the American player can use engineers to demolish bridges (since I'm unaware of the AI doing this). I also would intend to have special rules that would enable the American player to lauch a counter attack against the German flank and potentially capture Stavelot. Unfortunately the map has been rough going (like trying to slogg through the Ardennes mud and snow) due to its size. I would relish the opportunity to test your scenario and see your map if you were so inclined. I'm at mysteryeleven@yahoo.com

[Hpt. Lisse]

Yeah, my apologies, no more post happy hour posts from me...

[coldmeter]

Guys,

I'm reading a book at the moment called "The Devils Adjutant" by Micheal reynolds. It's about Jochen Peiper and his role in the Ardennes.

This book is excellent, very well researched and thoroughly detailed enough that if you are designing any scenario or campaign involving KG Peiper you should be using this as your reference. Positions on the field of battle for AT guns HMGs' and platoons are all given, aswell as the make up and direction of movement for all the German units.

According to Reynolds Peipers attacking force into Stoumont consisted of the following;

2nd SS Pz Coy, 7 x Mk V

6th SS Pz Coy, 2 x Mk IV

These drove down the N33 road straight into Stoumont.

Pz Gren from 9th SS Coy

Pnr from 9th SS Pnr Coy

Paratroopers

These units hooked around the south of the village on foot.

In reserve on the N33 were;

2nd SS Pz Coy, 5 x Pz MK V

11th SS Pz Gren Coy mounted in their SPW

Peiper also had artillery support, Reynolds describes it as meager so it must have been pretty small and he does not give any info as to which battery it may have been.

I hope this might help you out in some way (if it does not already repeat what has been said)

Mark

[ June 05, 2004, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: coldmeter ]

[aka_tom_w]

Hi McAuliffe,

is it full fledged operation, or just a REALLY big map?

Goog work

Thanks

-tom w

Originally posted by McAuliffe:

Hi,

It happens, that I just designed a huge CMAK operation map - for those that know the area- stretching out from the east (Borgoumont) to the west (Targnon), over 4 km, based on a topographic 1:25.000 scale map.

In the south, it includes the village of Cheneux, scene of dramatic close combat fighting during the attack of the 82nd. paratroopers.

I am trying now to figure out how you can set up playable game against the AI on such a map.

I was studying the order of battle in the various stages of the battle for the pocket of La Gleize-Stoumont and used the local museum brochure as a source. 7 KT's were left behind in La Gleize. None of them were found in Stoumont.

From what I have read and saw on pictures, some of them were active during the battle for the Sanatorium of Stoumont giving support from the hamlet of Roua, just north-east of Stoumont. Apparently, they were able to make it back to the center of La Gleize. A couple of the abandonned KT's were found on the acces roads via Borgoumont and on the highway leading up to the village of La Gleize. 2 were defending the farm of Werimont (south of La Gleize) One of these -commanded by Döllinger- was later recovered and placed on the market square. Other KT's were destroyed or abandonned during the attack on Stavelot and on the road between Stavelot and Trois-Ponts. Although many sources, say that 45 KT's started the campaign, I hardly can believe that and tend to stick to the number of 14 as stated above.

BTW, Is there anyone anyone that wants to try to test play the operation map? Unfortunately, I had to replace the KT's by the 'ordinary' ones. :mad:

[ June 07, 2004, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]