How to do a Monte Cassino scenario?

[MikeyD]

Here's a question.

People have expressed an interest in seeing a Monte Cassino scenario/operation for CMAK but I'm having some trouble imagining how one would make such a thing fit the game's parameters. Does anybody have any suggestion? How close to the real 'Monte Casino' would be close enough for you?

You could scale the map down to produce a useable "mini-Monte Cassino" with a ruined set of buildings at the top of a moderate-size hill. You could select a small portion of the battle (the last push to the top?) to depict at a proper scale. You could go whole-hog and do system-straining game on a monster map with a loooong game length... but who would play it?

[Slappy]

I would prefer a number of more local actions, with context in the briefing to put the engagement into the overall battle.

Am I asking for a Casino pack?

Yes.

[AndrewTF]

I've been playing around with some Monte Cassino maps in the editor. The entire Cassino area is way too humongous to really realistically consider, so I've been working on depicting smaller areas and battles such as the Rocca Janula, Cassino train station, etc. I've found a pretty good modern street map of Cassino online that's proven quite useful.

I'm really just in the starting phases of all this, so I can't say when or even if these will be publically released.

[lcm1947]

How about if there was already a Monte Cassino at The Proving Grounds? Yeah, that's right I just played it this past weekend and have to say it was extremely good and enjoyable. Here's the link to get to it.

http://www.the-proving-grounds.com/

The designer by the way is Mamluke256.

[ January 09, 2004, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: lcm1947 ]

[SFJaykey]

My preference would be for moderate to large scenarios depicting CM-sized engagements around Cassino at 1:1 scale. I would love to see a big operation on a giant, accurate map at 1:1 or close to it, but wouldn't charge anyone with the task of producing it, and frankly not sure I would get around to compeleting it myself....

[Grey Hunter]

Hmm, Cassino is missing, as is a decent Trobruk Scenario, but what scale is a hard one.

I would rather have a serise of smaller maps dealing with the various parts of the battle, (well, battles) rather than a reduced scale, and the absolutly huge battles take to long.

this scenario is a must, but it needs to be carfully planned

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

How about if there was already a Monte Cassino at The Proving Grounds? Yeah, that's right I just played it this past weekend and have to say it was extremely good and enjoyable. Here's the link to get to it.

http://www.the-proving-grounds.com/

The designer by the way is Mamluke256.

When I try to download this scenario, i get a webpage of code rather than the scenario file. I've written to the author to ask for an emailed copy, but I find the same problem with about half of all Proving Grounds scenarios. The others come through fine. I'm not sure if others have the same problem.

It might be worth looking into. Thanks.

[AndrewTF]

I've found that the Proving Ground wants to open the scenario text files in your browser. Control+click (or right click or whatever the heck Windoze users do) and save link to disk worked out ok for me.

[GJK]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lcm1947:

How about if there was already a Monte Cassino at The Proving Grounds? Yeah, that's right I just played it this past weekend and have to say it was extremely good and enjoyable. Here's the link to get to it.

http://www.the-proving-grounds.com/

The designer by the way is Mamluke256.

When I try to download this scenario, i get a webpage of code rather than the scenario file. I've written to the author to ask for an emailed copy, but I find the same problem with about half of all Proving Grounds scenarios. The others come through fine. I'm not sure if others have the same problem.

It might be worth looking into. Thanks. </font>

[Dawg Bonz]

As noted in the recent thread Family Ties to World War II here is what sparks my interest in the engagement:

Father in law (88 years old and still alive) was a Medical Officer in North Africa, Sicily and Italy. His 1st experience was arriving near Bizerte’ Tunisia to,"… a former city that was nothing much but rubble and a few goats…" Many stories of treating the carnage resulting from the Anzio & Monte Casino engagements. "We had ambulances backed up for blocks and blocks so many guys were getting injured… Some patients were so scared after this fierce fighting that they would get out and hide under their cloth cots when they heard aircraft in the area…." Italy became his favorite country to visit after WWII."

He made many, many trips to Europe after the war but Italy felt like his "second home." Just this week I was showing my father in law the CMAK game on my Mac. We played a few moves in "Brits at Anzio" when he said to me, " we took a awful lot of casualties from Anzio but where is Monte Casino?"

At 88yo, he is even less computer aware than I am. I explained how WWII historical hobbyist did the research for the maps, units, etc. I described the scenario / single battle vs. the operation / multiple battle game concept. He looked at me wide eyed and said, "Monte Casino was a massive campaign. Where is that in the game?"

My reply, "I am sure someone(s) with much more talent than myself will tackle a Monte Casino Campaign pack. I will let you know when it is posted."

----

AndrewTF…" The entire Cassino area is way too humongous to really realistically consider……"

Looking at my father in law’s comment and his tremendous wide eyed response, agrees with you entirely.

Mikey D … "a useable "mini-Monte Cassino" … or … "whole-hog and do system-straining game on a monster map with a loooong game length... but who would play it?"

I would give it a go but since the AI can beat me in small 1500 pt scenarios I would be crushed in such a massive scale engagement if my vintage Mac could even emulate it?

Slappy "…a Casino pack?"

Probably most realistic.

Grey Hunter…" this scenario is a must, but it needs to be carfully planned"

Agreed. So many diffenet nationalites were involved in Monte Cassino that this must be a must for CMAK completeness IMO.

SFJaykey… "moderate to large scenarios depicting CM-sized engagements around Cassino at 1:1 scale…."

Probably most reasonable considering the CM engine design and tactical focus of the game. IMO 1:1 scale is desirable for historical accuracy. For game play, performance considerations this may need to change in the current CM games. Now with CMX2?

lcm1947… "already a Monte Cassino at The Proving Grouds."

Thanks I will check it out for my Father in law.

[Agua]

As an aside, there was a poster here 2-3 years ago who claimed to be a vet of Monte Casino seeking any CMBO scenarios depicting combat in the region.

Not an attempt to hijack, just some tangential info.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by GJK:

Thanks CA, didn't see your email, but I have been emailed about this in the past (I haven't checked my blocked emails lately, so yours is probably sitting in there). At any rate, I believe I've narrowed this down to Netscape browsers. What browser/version are you using? PC or Mac?

Andrew is correct, right click and then select "save as" and it should work for you.

Thanks GJK and Andrew. I followed Andrew's advice and control-clicked on my Mac. Got Cassino and also the other scenarios I'd wanted.

[Andreas]

Judging from the memory of those small-unit actions that I have read about (all of Cassino was small-unit actions, because of the narrow frontages), most of them just would not make even a decent scenario.

1) Take a company of guys. Advance without cover. Have the Germans fire tons of mortars, Nebelwerfer, and artillery, as well as HMG fire from unseen positions, at you. Lose most of your company. Receive a company in reinforcements. Nuke the German part of the map with bucketloads of artillery. Lather, rinse, repeat.

2) The 25 men that are left of your company man a line that is far too wide. The Germans attack. You nuke them with artillery.

3) You lose your Ghurka company because they run into a hedge of thorn bushes full of mines that is covered by the Germans' HMGs and mortars. You never see the enemy. Good night.

The only combat that seems to be more promising is in the town itself. That should not be too difficult to do. No idea why nobody did it for the CD. I did not because I get depressed thinking about it.

Quick reminder - no fighting on top of the hill

[Michael Dorosh]

Guys - there are two ASL modules that centre on the fighting at Cassino; complete with maps broken down into 40 metres hexes. I have one of them, ASL Veteran has both. If you really want to do Cassino, go to ebay and search for CASSINO and CRITICAL HIT and ASL. Or go to your local wargames/hobby store. You can easily convert these maps to CM, and in not very much time. I had toyed with the idea but thought better of it.

Even better, there are scenarios included with French, Polish, American et al troops that could be the starting point to CM battles on this terrain - research already done for you. Or you can design an operation using the map and forces in the campaign games included in these modules.

If anyone wants to buy my copy of CARNAGE AT CASSINO, or trade for something, I'd be willing to discuss.

EDIT - apparently Andreas doesn't have these modules. Not sure how typical the actions portrayed in the scenarios are - and the terrain, honestly, looks rather dull. So he may be right.

But I have no doubt it is well researched, and if you have your heart set on it, would be a great place to start.

Bearing in mind of course that Cassino was what - four seperate battles fought over a four month period?

There is also an operational level game called THUNDER AT CASSINO that could be the basis for a CM campaign. You can find that oldie on ebay also, or in games stores. It was an area movement game but only covered the third battle for Cassino (IIRC).

[ January 09, 2004, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Dawg Bonz]

Michael Dorosh, "….. Cassino was what - four separate battles fought over a four month period?"

"Monte Casino was a massive campaign." Pops was there so he should have a good feel for what happened. I sure noticed when Pops rolled his eyes at the idea of single battle / operation!

Michael Dorosh, "….. there are scenarios included with French, Polish, American et al troops that could be the starting point to CM battles on this terrain - research already done for you."

Kinda why the totality of Monte Cassino is important. Pops said he remembered the "Gooms" (sp?), were the guys who did some very effective … up close and personal … fighting at Monte Cassino along with the Polish troops. I think he also said there was a group of Japanese Americans troops that were excellent fighters and never complained.

Andreas, … "Judging from the memory of those small-unit actions that I have read about (all of Cassino was small-unit actions, because of the narrow frontages), most of them just would not make even a decent scenario."

From what Pops said the up hill grind on ‘narrow frontages’ made for the distressing Allied casualties he helped treat. The long-term characteristics of the Cassino assault created a number of soldiers who were not psychologically fit to fight anymore. Having never been in war I can only imagine how many times you could advance uphill into well defended positions, see your buddies get killed or wounded before you literally got under your cot when the airplanes flew over.

"Quick reminder - no fighting on top of the hill." I think you are right Andreas.

(Thanks for your numerous scenarios Andreas. Your noteworthy enterprise is appreciated.)

A Monte Cassino pack is sounding like the better idea MikeyD. If you decide to take this considerable task on, I salute you Sir.

Question: Where the ‘Gooms’ the French Moroccan troops?

[ropey]

'Goums' were Morrocan and/or Algerian troops who specialised in mountain warfare. They lead the breakthrough at the Gustav Line by climbing mountains both sides thought impassible. Prior to this they had helped clear the mountains north and east of Cassino.

The 1st battle of Cassino, in late January, was the Americans' attack to the Northeast of Cassino, crossing the Rapido and capturing Cairo and many of the peaks above Cassino town. This attack got within a few hundred metres of the Abbey and to the outskirts of the town.

The 2nd battle, in mid-February, was the Maori Bn attack on the railway, in conjunction with an Indian attack in the hills above.

The 3rd battle, in mid-March, was the NZ Corp attack on Cassino town and the hills above.

The 4th battle, in May, was a part of the breakthrough of the Gustav Line, in which the Poles finally took the Abbey. (Cassino was abandoned by the retreating Germans.)

I made an accurate Cassino map for CMBO that Panzermeyer has a copy of. Can these be converted to CMAK?

CMAK still doesn't simulate buildings very well IMO, but those who have tried some Stalingrad scenarios may be better judges.

The 2nd battle would work OK in CMAK - perhaps you could try my attempt on the Scenario Depot site? I think 'representative' scenarios might work - that is, taking a small part of the town and limited forces. Otherwise a huge operation such as the Ortona one recently posted might work.

Issues are:

Size - 1 Para Bn (-) in extensive defenses, and up to 3 NZ Bns (+); an area of 1300m x 800m, with a height range of 50m-210m.

Damage - how do you simulate the aerial bombardment? Have a map covered in rubble and give the Germans 20% strength? Have a massive bombardment begin the scenario and Germans at 80% strength?

Timescale - how do you simulate a fortnight of fighting, including night infiltrations, and fluid lines?

Arty spotting - how do you keep FOs safe on the map yet still able to see clearly? Arty was spotted from vantage points like Monte Cairo and Monte Trocchio, miles from the front. (Though of course it was adjusted and called by units closer in.)

I will be in Cassino for the 60th. See you there?

[ January 10, 2004, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: ropey ]

[Tpatch]

My father was on the outskits of Cassino with the 141st during some part of the battle so it has always interested me.

I have a copy of an old Avalon Hill game called Thunder on Cassino. This comes with a pretty nice map + several scenarios that simulate different portions of the 3rd battle.

Thinking about it myself I don't see any of the Indian troops (Gurkas) that were involved in the fighting +

How do you do castle walls?

I'm a novice at scenario design but I'd be willing to collaborate with someone.

Tom

[Mick15]

Question: Where the ‘Gooms’ the French Moroccan troops?

Les Goumier (the 'Goums') were specifically French Morrocan irregulars although the term was sometimes used incorrectly for other North African troops.

In the fourth and final battle at Cassino the Free French Expeditionary Corps (US Fifth Army) was

2d Moroccan Infantry Div

4 RTM (Regiment de Tirailleurs Marocains)

5 RTM

8 RTM

3d Algerian Infantry Division

3 RTA (Regiment de Tirailleurs Algeriens)

7 RTA

4 RTT (Regiment de Tirailleurs Tunisiens)

1e Division de Marche (The original 1 Division Francais Libre - see the East African Thread)

1 bgd

2 bgd

3 bgd

4th Moroccan Mountain Division

1 rgt

2 rgt

6 rgt

Goumiers

1 Tabor Group

3 Tabor Group

4 Tabor Group

Only the last, irregular, formation were truely the Goums.

Find the Goums insignia here

Goums Insignia

and the TOE here

Order of Battle - Goumier Tabor Marocains

This includes the Duexieme GTM (2d Tabor Group) who were not at Cassino but on Napoleons former temporary home of Elba at the time.

Finally here is an image of a 'Goum'

A 'Goum'

Hope this answers your question re the little known Tabors Marocains - Les Goumiers.

[Dawg Bonz]

ropey & Mick15

Thanks for the clear explanations of 'Goums' and site locations for Tabors Marocains - Les Goumiers! I will pass this on to Pops. He will be excited about this I am sure. Have to brush up on my French reading but I should be able to get through OK. Just don’t ask me to speak French. 6 weeks of living in Paris with my brother (and his impeccable language skills) and I was embarrassed to buy things. Shopkeepers would try to teach me the correct Parisian pronunciation and point out my brother’s "Parisian accent."

Pops described Les Goumiers as "having no uniform… often wearing regular clothes… some with black clothing for camouflage." After looking at the image of a 'Goum' I can see where he would describe them in such manner. Uniforms look nothing like traditional US military attire. He described them in esteemed terms as to their tenacity and fighting ability in the harsh conditions of Monte Cassino.

http://www.army.mil/cmh/

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/romar/72-20.htm

The above links are worth a complete review for those interested in Monte Cassino & WWII. Here is the summary analysis of the Rome-Arno 22 January-9 September 1944 brochure prepared in the U.S. Army Center of Military History by Clayton D. Laurie. There are some photos, on of Cassino: the monastery, the castle, and the town. Impressive climb to the monastery even under non lethal bombardment conditions.

"Analysis

The Allied operations in Italy between January and September 1944 were essentially an infantryman's war where the outcome was decided by countless bitterly fought small unit actions waged over some of Europe's most difficult terrain under some of the worst weather conditions found anywhere during World War II. Given such circumstances, the growing Allied superiority in materiel, especially in armored and air forces, was of little consequence, and ground troops were forced to carry out repeated, costly frontal assaults that quickly turned the campaign into a war of attrition on a battlefield where the terrain heavily favored the defense. Chronic shortages of troops and materiel throughout 1944 exacerbated the already difficult tactical situation in Italy and became worse as the year wore on, ensuring that the limited Allied forces available would not obtain a quick, decisive victory, but would rather slowly grind down their well-entrenched and determined enemies.

The Allied air forces aided ground operations by providing close air support and by disrupting enemy supply lines and communications, but their efforts were not decisive as demonstrated during the bombings of Monte Cassino and Operation STRANGLE.

To critics of the Allied effort in Italy, the repeated ill-fated attempts to open the Liri valley, resulting in the disaster on the Rapido and the three costly assaults on Monte Cassino, as well as the desperate Anzio gamble, all indicated a lack of imagination on the part of both British and American commanders. Allied commanders, however, were limited in their options considering the political, logistical, and geographical aspects of the campaign."

Hmmm… "slowly grind down their well-entrenched and determined enemies…." Kinda sounds like WWI uphill? No wonder Pops saw so many injured over such an extended campaign. That said, Cassino was a massive part of the war effort for all sides. Again from U.S. Army Center of Military History by Clayton D. Laurie,

"Strategic Setting: The Allied landings in Italy in September 1943, followed quickly by the liberation of Naples and the crossing of the Volturno River in October, had tied down German forces in southern Italy. By year's end a reinforced German army of 23 divisions, consisting of 215,000 troops engaged in the south and 265,000 in reserve in the north, was conducting a slow withdrawal under pressure from the U.S. Fifth Army under Lt. Gen. Mark Clark and the Commonwealth and Allied forces of the British Eighth Army under General Sir Bernard L. Montgomery…."

I don’t know how you would create castle walls. Like Tpatch I too am a novice at scenario design. Only just played my 1st real human opponent in a PBEM.

Looks like ropey has done the scenario research and has evaluated the critical questions for Cassino using the CM engine. I will go check out your scenarios. Thanks in advance for the work.

"I will be in Cassino for the 60th. See you there?" Unfortunately We will not be there. At 88 years Pops does not get around too much now but he will be interested to read all written here when I show him. Thanks to all for the interesting and valuable information.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Dawg Bonz:

To critics of the Allied effort in Italy, the repeated ill-fated attempts to open the Liri valley, resulting in the disaster on the Rapido and the three costly assaults on Monte Cassino, as well as the desperate Anzio gamble, all indicated a lack of imagination on the part of both British and American commanders. Allied commanders, however, were limited in their options considering the political, logistical, and geographical aspects of the campaign."

Ah, the BS machine running at full speed. Gotta love official histories.

It sounds as if the book Cassino by John Ellis would be one that would be very interesting for you, and your dad. I don't say 'enjoy', because it is just too depressing. But it is a very well-researched account of the whole clusterf*ck, without the excuses you find in official histories. If you can find it (unlikely), you can also get Katrie Ben Ariel's 'Monte Cassino', which deals with just the Cassino battles (Ellis covers the months before and up to Rome), but that will be difficult for you.

[ropey]

Perhaps the NZers were the wrong troops to have been assigned to this battle, as although we had a good reputation for our fighting abilities, we were always 'hamstrung' by our refusal to take large losses. Freyberg said he would call off the attack when casualties got to 6000 (?) and this factor was always at the back of his mind. A US force may have been more willing to take losses (eg, San Pietro and the first Rapido crossing) and may possibly have taken the last 25% of

Cassino town.

Incidentally, I think my Cassino map (only) is on Scenario Depot too.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by ropey:

Perhaps the NZers were the wrong troops to have been assigned to this battle, as although we had a good reputation for our fighting abilities, we were always 'hamstrung' by our refusal to take large losses. Freyberg said he would call off the attack when casualties got to 6000 (?) and this factor was always at the back of his mind. A US force may have been more willing to take losses (eg, San Pietro and the first Rapido crossing) and may possibly have taken the last 25% of

Cassino town.

Incidentally, I think my Cassino map (only) is on Scenario Depot too.

First time I hear that he said that. But that has nothing to do with it. It is more the other way round - the generals were far to willing to throw away their men's lives for, well, nothing.

BTW - does anyone know if officers ranked GOC division or higher ever went to have a close look at the conditions at the front? Ben Ariel claims that none of the Allied generals ever bothered to have a look-see in the forward battle area.

You should keep in mind that the Rapido crossings were just another cluster of f*cks, and that despite the willingness to happily sacrifice a regiment, no toehold could be gained on the other side by the US forces. Anyone knows what the official CMH history has to say about that?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andreas:

BTW - does anyone know if officers ranked GOC division or higher ever went to have a close look at the conditions at the front? Ben Ariel claims that none of the Allied generals ever bothered to have a look-see in the forward battle area.

Do you mean just with respect to Cassino, or in "general"? Crerar of the Canadians was quoted once, during his brief tenure as GOC I Canadian Corps, that the Arielli River front was "just like Passchendaele". He was not a popular corps commander, at least not with the chap who quoted him. Other Canadian generals in Italy were criticized for not understanding the conditions; Vokes at the Moro, for one. I think Hoffmeister had a better reputation; hell, he even had his own tank.

[Andreas]

Just Cassino.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by ropey:

I made an accurate Cassino map for CMBO that Panzermeyer has a copy of. Can these be converted to CMAK?

The best I know is to take screenshots of the map in the editor (not preview), combine those into a single image, and use it as a background for Mapping Mission. Leland hasn't updated MM for CMAK yet, but he has promised to do so when he has time for it.