Light/partial armour

[John1966]

Just curious...

I've just had a US platoon HQ "knock out" (important distinction here: "Knocked out" not "abondoned") a German SD KFZ 7/1 flak vehicle from about 200m armed with nothing but a carbine and three M1 rifles.

How'd they do that then?

I realise they could cause crew casualties but surely the best that gets you is "abandoned".

I realise that the vehicle in question is only "light/partially armoured", but surely that's enough to stop you being KO'd by (light) small arms fire from that range...

There was some other stuff firing on the vehicle (other small arms and an 81mm morter area firing at a point about 15-20m away due to no LOS) but it was the platoon HQ who took the credit in the "KILLS/INFO" window.

As grateful as I am to the HQ in question I would love to hear your grognard explantions (or bizarre magic bullet theories).

Or just explain that I'm stupid and don't understand this game (after about 2 years of playing).

Cheers

[Redwolf]

The engine assume areas with no cover, so any hit has a chance to disable it. Plain and simple.

[Vixen]

Maybe the rifle bullets detonated a flak shell.

[Panzer76]

It shouldnt be possible, but it will happen from time to time, and the fanbois can give you all sorts of strange explinations.

[securityguard]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

It shouldnt be possible

Why shouldn't it? The game has absurd amount of abstractions, why wouldn't a stray bullet hitting something vital not take it out? Chances are so absolutely slim but could be there, especially with the 7/1.

Just because something has a snowballs chance in hell of happening doesn't mean it shouldn't IMHO.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by securityguard:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer76:

It shouldnt be possible

Why shouldn't it? The game has absurd amount of abstractions, why wouldn't a stray bullet hitting something vital not take it out? Chances are so absolutely slim but could be there, especially with the 7/1.

Just because something has a snowballs chance in hell of happening doesn't mean it shouldn't IMHO. </font>

[securityguard]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by securityguard:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer76:

It shouldnt be possible

Why shouldn't it? The game has absurd amount of abstractions, why wouldn't a stray bullet hitting something vital not take it out? Chances are so absolutely slim but could be there, especially with the 7/1.

Just because something has a snowballs chance in hell of happening doesn't mean it shouldn't IMHO. </font>

[Soddball]

'Knocked out' can mean either that the vehicle is destroyed, or that all the crew have died in the vehicle without bailing out.

Therefore, 'partial' armour would suggest that the gun crew of the vehicle were visible, were shot by the soldiers, and the vehicle thus become s'knocked out'.

[YankeeDog]

At the risk of being called a "fanboi":

What part of "light/partially armored" is unclear?

If you need help, I'll break it down: The armor it has is pretty thin, and/or doesn't cover all the crew and/or vulnerable spots on the vehicle.

In the case of the Sd Kfz 7/1, it's a bit hard to generalize because the amount of armor actually changed over the course of the war -- there's a substantial difference between the amount of armor on a 7/1 built in 1940, and one built in 1945.

I don't have schematics right in front of me, but IIRC, while the engine compartment itself was more or less fully armored, this armor plate did not protect all the vital running elements of the vehicle -- components such as the transmission, fluid & brake lines, etc. were not as well protected, and the ammunition, which was often carried behind in a small trailer, certainly wasn't all kept behind armor plate.

So there are a number of areas of the vehicle where a hit from a rifle-caliber bullet could cause a "knock-out" in CM terms, if you take a "knock-out" to mean enough mechanical damage to make the vehicle combat ineffective, at least for the short term.

Likely? No.

Possible? Certainly.

Also, FYI: it's a bit funky who gets the "kill" credit in CM -- by checking with opponents after the fact, I have verified that the weapon that causes the initial killing blow doesn't always get credit -- it appears to be the weapon that gets the last killing blow in before the death clock runs out. IOW, if one weapon KOs an AFV and starts the death clock running, and then another weapon gets a hit that would have also KOed the AFV before the death clock runs out, the second weapon gets credited with the kill in the stats window.

So it's quite possible the 81mm mortar fire, for example, knocked out the 7/1, but the Plt. HQ got a couple crew kills before the death clock ran out, and ended up getting credit for KOing kill.

The opposite is also possible: The Plt. HQ KOed the 7/1 by itself, but a later hit by the 81mm or some other weapon caused the Knock-Out damage.

Honestly, if the 7/1 was taking small arms fire from multiple angles, and under mortar fire, I'm not at all surprised it ended up taking enough damage to need to be towed off the battlefield and into the repair shop. . .

Cheers,

YD

[MikeyD]

I'm reminded of a story told by an old WWII jungle fighter I used to work with. He recalled arriving at some Pacific Island and the commander greeted the new recruits. Standing next to a half-track he exhorted them not to be dependant on their armor if attacked - to go to ground instead. He then turned, pulled out his Colt .45 and plugged a hole clean through the HT's side! That certainly got their attention!

I believe the original specs on that new uparmored M1114 Hummer for Iraq was the ability to stop an AK round from 100m - and they were mighty proud of reaching that capability.

[Michael Emrys]

There was an AP round for the M1, but I suspect that even ordinary steel-jacketed ball would penetrate an HT's armor at close range. Whether 200 meters is close enough or not is doubtful though.

Michael

[Hensworth]

The question is not whether a rifle round could penetrate an armor plate, but whether it is realistic for 3 guys with a carbine and 2 Garands to pick off 7 (?) Germans on and around the vehicle before they decided to get the hell out of there.

It isn't.

If the crew had bailed, it would probably have cost a lot more ammo to kill them while they were hugging the dirt. Other than that, the result is the same : AA vehicle out of action, crew all dead.

[Holman]

It shouldnt be possible, but it will happen from time to time, and the fanbois can give you all sorts of strange explinations.

My assumption is always that the gear shift has become tangled with the driver's intestines. This will effectively knock out the vehicle until a recovery team with buckets and sponges arrives, which of course is well beyond the scale of CM.

[Michael Emrys]

Well done, fanbois!

Michael

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Martyr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It shouldnt be possible, but it will happen from time to time, and the fanbois can give you all sorts of strange explinations.

My assumption is always that the gear shift has become tangled with the driver's intestines. This will effectively knock out the vehicle until a recovery team with buckets and sponges arrives, which of course is well beyond the scale of CM. </font>

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

It shouldnt be possible, but it will happen from time to time, and the fanbois can give you all sorts of strange explinations.

Why not? Assuming we're dealing with an Sdkfz 7/1 that was armored to begin with (they weren't all), even the ones that were armored were only armored around the driver's cab and, I think, the front engine. Meaning that 2/3 of the vehicle was not armored at all. You can knock a car out with a rifle at 200 meters; I don't see why you can't knock out an Sdkfz 7/1 with the same weapon from the same distance.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Sgt_Kelly:

The question is not whether a rifle round could penetrate an armor plate, but whether it is realistic for 3 guys with a carbine and 2 Garands to pick off 7 (?) Germans on and around the vehicle before they decided to get the hell out of there.

It isn't.

If the crew had bailed, it would probably have cost a lot more ammo to kill them while they were hugging the dirt. Other than that, the result is the same : AA vehicle out of action, crew all dead.

I would suggest going back and reading the original post. To points you bring up might be true, but they have nothing to do with the situation described.

To wit:

There was some other stuff firing on the vehicle (other small arms and an 81mm morter area firing at a point about 15-20m away due to no LOS) but it was the platoon HQ who took the credit in the "KILLS/INFO" window.

So it wasn't *only* "3 guys with a carbine and 2 Garands" firing on the 7/1, it was 3 guys with a carbine, 2 guys with garands, some other assorted small arms fire (not quantfied), AND 81mm mortar fire.

The platoon HQ (i.e., the three guys with a carbine and 2 with Garands) just happened to get the "killing blow" as far as the game engine was concerned. They could have caused a single crew casualty, or even not caused any crew casualties at all and just happened to send a bullet through some important engine or drivetrain component.

We also have no idea how many crew casualties were caused. Even "Abandoned" vehicles can have an exiting crew with 0 casualties -- this happens when the crew routs and decides to exit the vehicle.

So while I do agree that 5 guys with small arms causing 7 casualties in a short period of time from 200m is probably unrealistic, there is very little evidence that this is what happened here. However, I would expect a higher casualty rate for the crew up on the vehicle than I would for the same crew off the vehicle and "gone to ground" -- especially the gun platform of the the 7/1 is exactly where you *don't* want to be with mortar shells falling around and small arms fire coming in from multiple angles -- the gun shield would provide only limited protection from one direction.

Cheers,

YD