Brit/Com Infantry Assault - pathetic!

[sand digger]

The 'Assault' move order invariably results in the troops going to ground immediately they are fired upon. Then, often, the 'Sneak' move order is automatically adopted. So all the Germans have to do to stop an infantry assault cold is to fire once at the assaulting infantry. Not only is it stopped but the participants are often left exposed to further fire because they didn't reach the cover of the objective.

This is happening in two games where I am playing Commonwealth against human German and it is ridiculous. If this had happened in the real world 99% of infantry attacks would have failed.

The other point about 'Assault' is that it is not available to a separate Bren gunner yet it is available to a section which has a Bren gunner.

In the real world the Bren gunner was quite capable of participating in an assault and keeping up with the riflemen. It was also not unusual for the Bren gunner to play an important part in an assault, the extra firepower making an obvious contribution.

Nothing much can be done by a player about that but what about the first point? Any suggestions as to how to improve infantry Assault performance?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by sand digger:

In the real world the Bren gunner was quite capable of participating in an assault and keeping up with the riflemen. It was also not unusual for the Bren gunner to play an important part in an assault, the extra firepower making an obvious contribution.

Is this the same real world that I live in where a loaded Bren weighs 24 pounds? Cause I have serious doubts about the ability to fire accurately while firing from the hip or running. Add to that reloading the 28 round magazine on the run.

Standard Battle Drill was for the Bren Group to provide cover fire (while prone) while the Rifle Group did a right or left flanking.

[Sergei]

Most of the time you're much better off with Advance command. Check the manual for details.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by sand digger:

This is happening in two games where I am playing Commonwealth against human German and it is ridiculous. If this had happened in the real world 99% of infantry attacks would have failed.

It did happen in the real world (WW1). So, in the future, do what they do in the real world and supress the defenders first

The other point about 'Assault' is that it is not available to a separate Bren gunner yet it is available to a section which has a Bren gunner.

In the real world the Bren gunner was quite capable of participating in an assault and keeping up with the riflemen. It was also not unusual for the Bren gunner to play an important part in an assault, the extra firepower making an obvious contribution.

Actually, makes perfect sense when you look at the description of assault. Fire and movement. Brens firin', riflemen are movin'. Independent Bren only fires or moves

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

Actually, makes perfect sense when you look at the description of assault. Fire and movement. Brens firin', riflemen are movin'. Independent Bren only fires or moves

I think you might be thinking of advance, not assault here. From the manual:

Advance – tactical move when advancing under fire in view of the enemy. This assumes dashing from cover to cover, using covering and suppressive fire and movement by bounds. Order not available to: immobile units, heavy weapons and support weapons like mortars or anti-tank rifles, all conscripts, outof-command green units, exhausted units

Assault – similar to Advance, but especially useful for covering those last 10 or 20 meters into an enemy position. Increases morale slightly while allowing units to return suppressive fire, but too tiring to be used over longer stretches. Order not available to: immobile units, heavy weapons and support weapons, all conscripts, out-of-command green units, tired units, units which have previously panicked (i.e. “rattled”)

[Pinetree]

Standard Battle Drill was for the Bren Group to provide cover fire (while prone) while the Rifle Group did a right or left flanking.

Things haven't changed much in 60 years then,thats what we're still taught today(although it's a C9 not a bren)

[Ant]

It's not a good idea to assault an enemy unit that isn't supressed unless you've got a good numerical superiority and can assault from different directions

This is happening in two games where I am playing Commonwealth against human German and it is ridiculous. If this had happened in the real world 99% of infantry attacks would have failed.

I suspect that in the real world if frontal assaults were conducted against organised unsupressed enemies then, yes, 99% would fail.

[JonS]

What unit are you in Pinetree? (WnHB here, formerly 16Fd)

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Sergei:

I think you might be thinking of advance, not assault here. From the manual...

Yep, you're right. Now that I think on it, I almost never use Assault ('cept ta get across the street)

[Pinetree]

What unit are you in Pinetree? (WnHB here, formerly 16Fd)

Ex-RFCS,Will be joining HB Coy as soon as I get a couple of ops done.So maybe in 2 years! (Damn public health service).

[flamingknives]

Plus the Germans tend to have a high close-range firepower due to the number of automatic weapons.

My personal favourite way of getting rid of German infantry is 3" mortars and Vickers MMGs while infantry closes to the point where they can be effective. It's nice that Commonwealth infantry have large ammo loads, too.

[xerxes]

I use Assault much more than I used to. I don't use it to try and "overrun" the enemy. It's quite effective for getting across an open section that's under mg fire. Fewer casualties and less chance of suppression.

If you're getting forced to sneak while assaulting you have a mix of:

1. Too much enemy firepower in the area (and the converse, you haven't suppressed enough of the shooters)

2. Troops aren't high enough quality

3. You HQ doesn't have enough heart

4. Your terrain is just too exposed

Assault doesn't guarantee you'll make it.

[Other Means]

i make the mistake of trying to assault to easily.

i'm starting to think the key is to grind them down rather than roll over them, especially with Commonwealth troops. get close enough so that you have eyes to ID the target, then sit & shoot at them. the Axis will outshoot you for quite a while but you have attack odds + a schwerpunkt so your pinned units can recover. then they run out of ammo & you flank them.

suppress MG's with HE chuckers, kill HE chucker killers with mortars, arty etc.

i'm not that good at it yet, everything is ragged. but i think i'm on the right track.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Other Means:

i make the mistake of trying to assault to easily.

i'm starting to think the key is to grind them down rather than roll over them, especially with Commonwealth troops. get close enough so that you have eyes to ID the target, then sit & shoot at them. the Axis will outshoot you for quite a while but you have attack odds + a schwerpunkt so your pinned units can recover. then they run out of ammo & you flank them.

suppress MG's with HE chuckers, kill HE chucker killers with mortars, arty etc.

i'm not that good at it yet, everything is ragged. but i think i'm on the right track.

Yes you are - Konev in his memoirs is making exactly this point. If you use your infantry before your fire assets have established control of the battlefield, all you is wasting the lives of your men to no avail. The establishment of fire superiority preceeds movement. The Soviet commanders who did not understand this were failures, in his view.

[sand digger]

OK, will try Advance rather than Assault.

My previous 'real world' comments were made on the basis of information provided in several WW2 official histories. Attacking infantry was invariably fired upon before being able to close with the enemy. Light fire from a single source, which is what I was talking about, was usually what they got on a good day.

Bren gunners often fired effectively on the run, in fact the Bren was often basically used as an assault weapon, fire support being provided by other means eg Vickers MG's. And having used a Bren gun myself, although fortunately not in combat, I can categorically say that it was quite suited for the assault role, a very nice and effective weapon.

What was written in drill books often bore little relationship to what was practiced in the real world, as the records show. I'm surprised if that is not realised.

Back to the game, unless Advance works more realistically then it is skewed against my Commonwealth boys, also forced to lug their Boys AT rifles around when no such real world requirement existed.

[Broken]

The only time I use "Assault" is inside buildings, factories, or dense vegatation. And only to advance 1 - 10 meters. Assault seems to result in more grenades being tossed and other aggressive behavior.

As stated earlier, Assault is a poor substitute for suppression and Advance for crossing open terrain.

[Redwolf]

I think you overstate the defending fire.

The is a 50 meter diameter supressive area around the impact point of MGs in CM (including squads with MGs), but that's about it.

It has is weaknesses (e.g. cover doesn't help against this 50 meter supresive circle) but it doesn't allow the defender to pin an attacking force with a single shooter either.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by sand digger:

Bren gunners often fired effectively on the run, in fact the Bren was often basically used as an assault weapon,

I rather doubt it.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by sand digger:

What was written in drill books often bore little relationship to what was practiced in the real world, as the records show. I'm surprised if that is not realised.

I can not remember any mention in 18 Platoon of Brens fired from the hip, but that maybe because of my age. I can remember ordinary fire and movement being mentioned though.

[Wisbech_lad]

Or in "Quartered Safe Out Here".

There is this photo from http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1939War/index.html (good Indian army site)

but it looks a little staged to me

Editted to add that the Indian Army still use Bren guns - there are some photos on the site of Brens being used in the Kargil conflict (1999)

[ May 13, 2004, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: Wisbech_lad ]

[Andreas]

Well, even if it was not staged, the Indian Army were the Finns of Burma, I am sure there is one with a toothpick looking for a Japanese tank to disable in the background.

Anyway, I think the Japanese in those foxholes made them growl and show their teeth, so this may be an exceptional picture.

[Wisbech_lad]

Actually, the caption says the photo is from Italy, 1945, storming a German trench... Note they are in trousers, think Burma was tropical uniform

Never get between a Sepoy and his tiffin, or they'll go Ghurka on you and totally flip.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Actually, the caption says the photo is from Italy, 1945, storming a German trench... Note they are in trousers, think Burma was tropical uniform

That is one well-staged picture.

[cassh]

MD - I suggest you read a few VC citations as I can recall a few "lone" bren gunners going forward to take enemy positions - although not in the battle drill pamphlets or doctrine, in the field firing from the 'hip' was not at all that uncommen.

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=1235

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=1179

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=1022

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=696

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=677

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=675

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=610

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=202

If you think of a platoon attack: two sections (10 rifles + 1 bren) are generally suppressing the target whilst the remaining rifle section manoeuvres. Now altough smart platoon commanders may have lumped their three brens together as an uber-gun-group, usually the assaulting section's bren group 'went in' with the other lads, often firing from the hip.

Also note that 24lbs is not 'that' heavy, especially when using a shoulder sling. As an Army Cadet I was often given the bren gun (anyone remember .303 wooden blanks and the blue 'masher barrel'). Although clumbersome at times, and heavy on long tabs, I do not ever remember thinking during an assault 'Hold-up, this bren's damn heavy, better not go in with the others as I might get a wee bit tired!'

The GPMG is bigger and uglier and I fired that from the hip as well in many section attacks when in the assaulting section. Why else would you require a coverted webbing pouch fixed to the gun to hold your link ammo?

Note on British Army section battle drills 1940-2004):

contact

dash down crawl observe sights fire

fire fight phase

win the fire fight (i.e. enemy suppressed)

fire and manoevure phase (pepper-potting)

assault phase (swords on, post grenades)

clear the enemy position

re-org (ammo, casualties, all-round defence)

Rommel (infantry attacks) and the USMC have fire ratios 3:1 - 6:1 as minimum suppression elements over manoeuvre elements - so make sure if two unsupported platoons are attacking five of the rifle sections are lamping the enemy whilst one moves in for the kill!

[Andreas]

I think using Victoria Cross citations to support the argument that something was 'not that uncommon' is a bit problematic.