Brit/Com Infantry Assault - pathetic!

[dieseltaylor]

M Dorosh

"As for the VC citations, I see no mention of anyone "shooting from the hip"."

I am most upset! : ) I now have to check everything you say because you were out and out wrong. Depression ; (

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by cassh:

[QB] MD

Some points

As for the VC citations, I see no mention of anyone "shooting from the hip".

I only looked at the first one. But I knew I could get you to post them for me. Seriously, thanks. It's interesting reading, but look at the ranges involved.

Private Kenna stood up in full view of the enemy less than 50 yards away and engaged the bunker, firing his Bren gun from the hip. .

In this one, the enemy were startled - not shot down, but that doesn't matter for your argument - it clearly had an effect on the enemy:

Lance-Corporal Kenneally charged alone down the bare forward slope straight into the main body of the enemy about to make an attack, firing his Bren gun from the hip; the enemy were so surprised that they broke up in disorder.

He rushed forward, firing the Bren gun from his hip and succeeded in clearing a path through the enemy and inflicting an extremely large number of casualties. He was then seen to fall, shot dead by a sniper's bullet.

Gallant and tragic...

Corporal Rattey, realizing that any advance would be halted by this fire and heavy casualties inflicted, dashed forward firing his Bren gun from the hip and completely neutralized the enemy fire from three forward bunkers. Then, having silenced a bunker with one grenade, he fetched two more with which he silenced the other two bunkers.

The VC citations are extraordinary not for the fact that British and Commonwealth soldiers fired Bren guns from the hip, but for the fact these men often carry out lone attacks rather than with the rest of their platoon – the circumstances not the method are the exception and noteworthy feature in all these case.

But medal citations rarely mention what the other 30 men in the platoon were doing. Again, I realize that Bren Guns can be fired from the hip, but was this what they trained to do and more importantly, is it something we should allow in CM? I'd love to see a PIAT team be able to pick up a Thompson SMG and spray down 20 Germans with it. This is how Smokey Smith won the VC. But making uncommon acts terribly common would unbalance the game.

Very easy to shoot at a half-section dashing forward in 5-10 metre bounds when ‘playing’ the enemy, very different in reality when actual suppressing fire is coming in from the platoons two ‘firm’ sections and the remaining half-section participating in the assault.

Yes, precisely.

No doubt your combat expertise

That was uncalled for.

means that pepper potting should no long be used by the British Army which has found it so successful for the past half-century. Like all drills, when performed poorly it does not work that well – when performed slickly it is a highly effective method of covering the last hundred metres onto an enemy position and getting maximum firepower on the target whilst going forward. A well known recent example of breaking contact using pepper potting is described in the book Bravo Two Zero. The tactic is used by the entire British Army and Royal Marines. My rule of thumb is if it is still being used effectively by UK forces in infantry battles today then it cannot be all that bad a tactical drill.

I think you missed my point; actually you nailed it in your previous paragraph.

As to the accuracy of firing GPMG/Bren from the hip – again, no probably not that ‘effective’ as a form of fire,

My point entirely.

but a good moral booster and enemy suppressor when closing in (30-0 yards) on their position.

Clearly using the gimpy as a fire support base is much more effective, but who said soldiers always do what is prescribed.

I can also vouch for the fact that the ‘FN’ GPMG or gimpy can indeed be fired from the shoulder with some degree of accuracy (300 metres Fig.11 twelve rounds from twenty in five bursts).

The original point was that a two man bren team should be able to ‘assault’ and I agree they should – not a very wise use of this unit, but nevertheless it can be done. Remember the bren was akin to the LSM/Minimi (M249) C6-7-8-9 or what ever your lot call them – i.e. a section level LMG not a platoon/coy level MMG and therefore it is highly mobile – so your point about firing a .50 cal on the move is specious to say the least.

What I'd like to see in the new engine is the ability to break squads down into teams of any size and composition the player wants, with attendant command and control problems, and perhaps also a BERSERK status in which a Bren Gunner, rifleman, or anyone else goes battle-mad and charges "firing from the hip." It clearly happened on the battlefield, however rarely. Surely if we simulate total panic and collapse, we could simulate the other end of the spectrum.

Should we permit all Bren Gun teams to do so, though? If it reflects actual standard practice, then yes, if it doesn't, then no. I don't feel that VC citations provide enough of a historical precedent to support that particular game design decision.

Which isn't to say that I think every time someone picked up a Bren and charged shooting from the hip, he got the VC. It obviously happened much more often than that, and that point has been made several times in this thread. My only objection is whether or not this particular tactic was effective enough to be simulated seperately in CM, or whether or not it would give the CW player an ahistorical advantage by how it gets simulated.

[ May 14, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]