Brit/Com Infantry Assault - pathetic!

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I think using Victoria Cross citations to support the argument that something was 'not that uncommon' is a bit problematic.

Feh. You Air Force types, I swear.

There was a cook in 6th/7th Queen's who could fire the L4 (Bren) from the shoulder, never mind the hip. Mind, this was the same bloke who said he didn't like the bipod on the GPMG because it tended to pop open when he was trying to roll with it.

Firing a Bren from the hip really isn't a big deal. If you recall that Syndney Jary piece I extracted from a recent BAR on APC tactics, that mentions firing Brens from the hip in the assault. I have seen the tactic referred to in a PRO document somewhere as well, ISTR.

Not that I think it's good tactics, mind, but you will see from your man's use of the phrase "fix swords" that he is Light Infantry, and they do all sorts of weird things.

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

I'm sorry, I could have sworn I was objecting to the phrase "fired effectively on the run" and not, in fact saying "was never fired on the run."

You could run with a Browning .50 and between two men manage to fire it on the run. How "effective" that would be is open to argument, though of course, it depends on your definition of "effective" fire.

I've seen pictures of German MG34 gunners running with the MG34 at the hip, too - in fact, it had an "assault drum" for, well, assaulting with.

Doesn't mean anyone ever hit a bloody thing with it while running. I am defining effective fire as hitting enemy soldiers.

A Bren fired on the run may indeed have a certain suppressive effect on the enemy; so too would painting one's self purple and shrieking like a banshee. Doesn't mean I would expect anyone in my section to actually do it in a firefight.

Though I might nominate him for the VC if he did it.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

Rifle Regiments use the term Fix Swords. I know the Light Infantry use buglehorns in their insignia, but they also have Regimental Colours and don't wear Battle Honours on their cap badges, at least in Canada. Is it possible you've confused the two?

[dieseltaylor]

Andreas

"I think using Victoria Cross citations to support the argument that something was 'not that uncommon' is a bit problematic."

I would have thought this was a reflecton of how easy it is to access the information on VC's, if it would make you happier I suppose one could work through the lesser medals, then start on battalion histories : )

Apparently the Bren was weapon of choice for this kind of stunt - and I really doubt that it was rare - but then I suspect you will want me to re-read all my histories and then work out in what percentages of all actions it took place.!! The trouble is that if it was reasonably common it may slip under the "noteworthy" level : (

BTW I felt a faint glow of pride to think I have travelled on the Dominion Monarch on which a VC had travelled.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by cassh:

MD - I suggest you read a few VC citations as I can recall a few "lone" bren gunners going forward to take enemy positions - although not in the battle drill pamphlets or doctrine, in the field firing from the 'hip' was not at all that uncommen.

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=1235

On 23 June 1944 at Mogaung, Burma (now Myanmar), during an attack on the railway bridge, a section of one of the platoons was wiped out with the exception of Rifleman Tulbahadur Pun, his section commander and one other. The section commander immediately led a charge on the enemy position but was at once badly wounded, as was the third man. Rifleman Tulbahadur Pun, with a Bren gun continued the charge alone in the face of shattering fire and reaching the position, killed three of the occupants and put five more to flight, capturing two light machine-guns and much ammunition. He then gave accurate supporting fire, enabling the rest of his platoon to reach their objective.

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=1179

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=1022

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=696

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=677

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=675

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=610

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=202

If you think of a platoon attack: two sections (10 rifles + 1 bren) are generally suppressing the target whilst the remaining rifle section manoeuvres. Now altough smart platoon commanders may have lumped their three brens together as an uber-gun-group, usually the assaulting section's bren group 'went in' with the other lads, often firing from the hip.

Also note that 24lbs is not 'that' heavy, especially when using a shoulder sling. As an Army Cadet I was often given the bren gun (anyone remember .303 wooden blanks and the blue 'masher barrel'). Although clumbersome at times, and heavy on long tabs, I do not ever remember thinking during an assault 'Hold-up, this bren's damn heavy, better not go in with the others as I might get a wee bit tired!'

The GPMG is bigger and uglier and I fired that from the hip as well in many section attacks when in the assaulting section. Why else would you require a coverted webbing pouch fixed to the gun to hold your link ammo?

If by GPMG you mean the FN, which is equal to our C6 in Canada, I can't help but point out we use them as platoon support weapons - on a bipod where possible and even on an SF kit (tripod). I understand the British Army also no longer uses it as the LMG of the section.

Blaze away all you want from the hip, I am sure you made the perfect target. We practice section battle drills here too - and for the most part when playing Enemy Force, can't help but notice how easy it is to pick people off pepperpotting at us because it bears no resemblance to what anyone in their right mind would do in a shooting war.

As for the VC citations, I see no mention of anyone "shooting from the hip".

Notice the phrase "gave accurate supporting fire." How do you think that was done? Supporting means he was no longer leading the charge; probably safe to assume he was lying down or in cover and firing the weapon as it was meant to be fired.

Even the parts where he is leading the charge, nothing is said about him hitting anything. Of course, once you've charged up to an enemy trench - as in the staged photo a page ago - how could you not hit anything from that close range?

Battle madness aside, the section battle drills do provide that one group provides cover fire while the other group moves. Yes, the Bren Gun fires during these maneuvers. Yes, the Bren Gun may fire from the hip.

No, he won't hit anybody no matter how good he is unless they are 10 feet away, and most importantly, no the Bren Gun should not be given some special advantage in Combat Mission because it was "always fired (effectively) on the assault" if that is the original point being made.

[Ant]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John D Salt:

Rifle Regiments use the term Fix Swords. I know the Light Infantry use buglehorns in their insignia, but they also have Regimental Colours and don't wear Battle Honours on their cap badges, at least in Canada. Is it possible you've confused the two? </font>

I thought it was only the RGJ that used the term swords in the British army.

[flamingknives]

At a rough guess, the swords reference alludes to the larger sword bayonet issued to riflemen to make up for their rifles being shorter than the issue muskets.

[Michael Dorosh]

No, it is tradition in Rifle Regiments to refer to bayonets - even the spikes - as "swords". Pure tradition that started with the Rifle Brigade and extends to Rifle Regiments in the Commonwealth forces - the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, Royal Regina Rifles and Royal Winnipeg Rifles all still use the term swords for the C7 bayonet.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Ant:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John D Salt:

Rifle Regiments use the term Fix Swords. I know the Light Infantry use buglehorns in their insignia, but they also have Regimental Colours and don't wear Battle Honours on their cap badges, at least in Canada. Is it possible you've confused the two? </font>

I thought it was only the RGJ that used the term swords in the British army. </font>

[flamingknives]

RGJs were orignally a rifle unit.

RGJ History Site

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

[snips]

Rifle Regiments use the term Fix Swords. I know the Light Infantry use buglehorns in their insignia, but they also have Regimental Colours and don't wear Battle Honours on their cap badges, at least in Canada. Is it possible you've confused the two?

Entirely possible, as I can't tell one flavour of light bob from another.

Who is it who drills from the "at ease" position instead of "attention", is that rifles, or is that LI?

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

Rifle Regiments drill from the At Ease, march past in Double Time, and carry rifles at The Trail.

When called to attention, the command is "Stand To Your Front" or "Look To Your Front" rather than "shun".

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Rifle Regiments drill from the At Ease, march past in Double Time, and carry rifles at The Trail.

I s'pose someone's got to find a use for the carrying handle on the rifle.

It seems that LI drill is much the same:

http://www.army.mod.uk/lightinfantry/customs_traditions/index.htm

All the best,

John.

[tar]

A Bren fired on the run may indeed have a certain suppressive effect on the enemy; so too would painting one's self purple and shrieking like a banshee. Doesn't mean I would expect anyone in my section to actually do it in a firefight.

Though I might nominate him for the VC if he did it.

Would the VC be for the Bren gun part or the painting purple part?

[Andreas]

Originally posted by dieseltaylor:

I suspect you will want me to re-read all my histories and then work out in what percentages of all actions it took place.!!

Nah, it was just too good an opportunity to quib to let it pass.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by tar:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> A Bren fired on the run may indeed have a certain suppressive effect on the enemy; so too would painting one's self purple and shrieking like a banshee. Doesn't mean I would expect anyone in my section to actually do it in a firefight.

Though I might nominate him for the VC if he did it.

Would the VC be for the Bren gun part or the painting purple part? </font>

[Ant]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

At a rough guess, the swords reference alludes to the larger sword bayonet issued to riflemen to make up for their rifles being shorter than the issue muskets.

You're correct. It started with the sword that was issued instead of the traditional bayonet with the Baker rifle during the Napoleonic wars.

[Michael Dorosh]

This is too weird; one of our English immigrants on the unit started racing me down the hallway and regaling me with an anecdote about how fast the Durham Light Infantry used to march. This from the same dude who confessed to being a conscientious objector to the Boy Scouts. Apparently the DLI Museum is one of the main draws back from where he is from - Newcastle?

[Andreas]

Michael, I think that it would strike most people who know their English geography (and there are not many, granted), as entirely reasonable to assume that the Durham Light Infantry (DLI) does indeed hail from County Durham.

Durham is to Newcastle what a Rolls Royce is to a clapped out, rusty 79 Ford Pinto.

The museum appears to be very nice - I have only made it into the bookshop, but walked out with some nice books. On my next visit to Durham I make an extra allowance for it. It is however not fair to say that it is the only attraction, unless you are either blind, or of a mental dullness that would make a leech seem appreciable of fine arts, compared to you. Durham is also home to one of the most magnificent cathedrals in the realm, and a very fine 'city' centre.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Andreas:

[snips]

Durham is to Newcastle what a Rolls Royce is to a clapped out, rusty 79 Ford Pinto.

Boo! Shame!

Originally posted by Andreas:

The museum appears to be very nice - I have only made it into the bookshop, but walked out with some nice books.

I visited a couple of times when I was at the University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

One thing you won't be able to see anywhere else is the badly battered 2-pdr on which Adam Wakenshaw won his posthumous VC, having continued to serve the weapon after he had lost an arm.

Originally posted by Andreas:

Durham is also home to one of the most magnificent cathedrals in the realm, and a very fine 'city' centre.

Yeah, but Newcastle's got Viz, the Metro and Bigg Market!

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

Did I mention he talks really fast?

He sent me a link to a website he helped put together, something about hospitals in Northumberland. Now it seems to be the Northumbrian Division were called Tyne-Tees, so I worked that into the conversation. Not sure where Newcastle came from - did I mention he talks really fast?

He also mentioned the university in Durham and the rich people and the poor people....it was tough to keep up. I made my cleverest reference to the Newcastle Pals on 1 July and slinked away...

[Other Means]

sorry. i know this thread has strayed off target. but a hurrah for Newcastle.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

No, it is tradition in Rifle Regiments to refer to bayonets - even the spikes - as "swords".

A tradition started in the 95th when the Baker Rifle had a sword bayonet (and often used as such rather than fixed to the rifle). It was considerably larger than the bayonet used for the muskets

[cassh]

MD

Some points

As for the VC citations, I see no mention of anyone "shooting from the hip".

I suggest you actually read the citation through, as you will see that they do indeed mention firing from the hip (see below).

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=675

On 15 May 1945 near Wewak, New Guinea, when fire from a Japanese bunker was holding up the company's advance, Private Kenna stood up in full view of the enemy less than 50 yards away and engaged the bunker, firing his Bren gun from the hip. The enemy returned the fire and bullets actually passed between Private Kenna's arms and body. Undeterred, he remained completely exposed and went on firing until his magazine was exhausted, when he continued with a rifle. As a result of his gallantry the bunker was taken without further loss.

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=677[/url

On 28 April 1943 at Dj. Arada, Tunisia, Lance-Corporal Kenneally charged alone down the bare forward slope straight into the main body of the enemy about to make an attack, firing his Bren gun from the hip; the enemy were so surprised that they broke up in disorder. The lance-corporal repeated his exploit on 30 April when, accompanied by a sergeant, he charged the enemy forming up for assault, inflicting many casualties. Even when wounded he refused to give up, but hopped from one fire position to another, carrying his gun in one hand and supporting himself on a comrade with the other.

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=696

On 29 August 1942 in Isurava, Papua, New Guinea, when the enemy had broken through the battalion's right flank, creating serious threats to the rest of the battalion and to its headquarters, Private Kingsbury volunteered to join a platoon which had been ordered to counter-attack. He rushed forward, firing the Bren gun from his hip and succeeded in clearing a path through the enemy and inflicting an extremely large number of casualties. He was then seen to fall, shot dead by a sniper's bullet. His superb courage made possible the recapture of a position which saved Battalion Headquarters.

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=1022

On 22 March 1945 at Bougainville, Solomon Islands, an attack by a company of Australian Infantry on a strongly held enemy position was met by extremely heavy fire. Corporal Rattey, realizing that any advance would be halted by this fire and heavy casualties inflicted, dashed forward firing his Bren gun from the hip and completely neutralized the enemy fire from three forward bunkers. Then, having silenced a bunker with one grenade, he fetched two more with which he silenced the other two bunkers. The company was then able to continue its advance. Later Corporal Rattey captured another machine-gun and 2,000 rounds of ammunition.

The VC citations are extraordinary not for the fact that British and Commonwealth soldiers fired Bren guns from the hip, but for the fact these men often carry out lone attacks rather than with the rest of their platoon – the circumstances not the method are the exception and noteworthy feature in all these case.

We practice section battle drills here too - and for the most part when playing Enemy Force, can't help but notice how easy it is to pick people off pepperpotting at us because it bears no resemblance to what anyone in their right mind would do in a shooting war.

Very easy to shoot at a half-section dashing forward in 5-10 metre bounds when ‘playing’ the enemy, very different in reality when actual suppressing fire is coming in from the platoons two ‘firm’ sections and the remaining half-section participating in the assault.

No doubt your combat expertise means that pepper potting should no long be used by the British Army which has found it so successful for the past half-century. Like all drills, when performed poorly it does not work that well – when performed slickly it is a highly effective method of covering the last hundred metres onto an enemy position and getting maximum firepower on the target whilst going forward. A well known recent example of breaking contact using pepper potting is described in the book Bravo Two Zero. The tactic is used by the entire British Army and Royal Marines. My rule of thumb is if it is still being used effectively by UK forces in infantry battles today then it cannot be all that bad a tactical drill.

As to the accuracy of firing GPMG/Bren from the hip – again, no probably not that ‘effective’ as a form of fire, but a good moral booster and enemy suppressor when closing in (30-0 yards) on their position. Clearly using the gimpy as a fire support base is much more effective, but who said soldiers always do what is prescribed.

I can also vouch for the fact that the ‘FN’ GPMG or gimpy can indeed be fired from the shoulder with some degree of accuracy (300 metres Fig.11 twelve rounds from twenty in five bursts).

The original point was that a two man bren team should be able to ‘assault’ and I agree they should – not a very wise use of this unit, but nevertheless it can be done. Remember the bren was akin to the LSM/Minimi (M249) C6-7-8-9 or what ever your lot call them – i.e. a section level LMG not a platoon/coy level MMG and therefore it is highly mobile – so your point about firing a .50 cal on the move is specious to say the least.

[Big Jim]

I don't know, all those examples seemed suicidally brave to me and lucky not all to be posthumous...(hence the VC I suppose). Are such manouevres SOP in any army?

BTW, people from Newcastle are all as mad as a teapot.