SS Bashing

[Corvidae]

At the risk of being accused of having an agenda that I dont have, and holding ideologys I dont hold. I'm going to defend the SS.

There is a great deal of mythology surrounding the SS as a whole. Some of this mythology is true, Some is a blend of truth and propaganda, And some is just propaganda.

The trick is to sort through the mess and place everything in its proper pile.

(Myth)

Every member of the SS is automaticly a criminal. Criminals joined the SS because they were criminals,

Reality

Although the SS attracted criminals. So did every military establishment. Enlistment in the military placed the individual far beyond the reach of civilian magistrates.

The military of most nations attracted both the guilty criminal and the wrongfully accused. The SS was no different.

But at the same time, the SS also attracted the idealistic young men who wanted to be part of the promised social changes that the Nazi party claimed to promote. The Nazi party did not post full confessions of its insane fantasys for public consumption. They had a skillfull propaganda machine to whitewash over the many wrongs and evils in their policys. Many people are mentaly lazy, and patriotism blinds people even today. Many young germans joined the SS because they honestly believed the patriotic lies they were being fed.

Many young men also joined to impress girls. The SS had a flashy uniform, and a reputation for exelence. Take your average 17 year old male and show him a macho recruiting poster, and he will visualize himself in the role of hero.

Despite official party claims, there continued to be poverty in the reich. Thousands of young men from impoverished familys were drawn to the SS by better pay. An SS trooper could send home more money to his family every month.

Just as being a former SAS or Marine can improove your chances of landing a high profile career today. So also coming up through the SS was a good career move for a german in the 1930s.

There were many other reasons for germans to join the SS as well. The likelyhood of a given SS recruit being a criminal was generaly no higher than in any other branch or army.

[Tagwyn]

Oh for crying out loud!! Another Nazi lover! Tag

[Loaf]

Hmmm... I have nver heard anybody claim that a lot of SS recruits were criminals when they joined... I think you are more likely to hear the statement that since the SS committed crimes therefore its members became criminals by association AFTER joining.

Corvidae, I think you are perhaps tackling the wrong side of the issue. If I were going to discuss whether or not SS members were criminals I would look at the distinction between the Waffen SS combat formations and the units that handled concentration/extermination camps. Furthermore one would need to address the reputation that the Waffen SS units had for committing atrocities while in combat...

However, I think your point about the likely motives of the young men joining up sounds plausible... Probably many men joined who were not really fanatical Nazis, just as many Germans joined the Nazi party to advance their careers, gain social status etc.

Having said that, I am no fan of the SS myself... A nasty bunch of people regardless of their motivation!

[David I]

Oh boy.

DavidI

[ParaBellum]

"SS are overpriced hampsters!"

:mad:

[Corvidae]

(Myth)

The SS was a racist organization.

Reality.

While it is true that the SS had a very strong racial identity, the same was equaly true for most western military establishments at the time.

Racism was an accepted and respected part of western social and religious thought. The myths of racial heirarchy, racial right, and racial supremacy, Were all a normal part of western civilization. The KKK was a respected social club.

Jim Crow laws were considered perfectly fair and ethical. Racial segragation was part of life. And as long as the white man won, racial violence was ignored.

Racialy justified injustice was universal. To point at the SS without looking at the rest of the world for a context, is a hypocritical act of moral cowardice.

Before 1945 almost everyone was racist.

They didnt know any better. The question is .....

*DO WE KNOW BETTER NOW?*

[z-warfare]

I suspect this debate really doesn't belong on this forum. But here goes. I think members of the SS were indeed criminals. I think you're missing the difference between petty criminals and sociopaths. You've listed plenty of good reasons bright young gentlemen had to join the SS... but in my mind the 'criminal' aspect associated with SS comes from the actions carried out by the organization and its members during the war, as in 'war criminal' or 'crimes against humanity' rather than any idea that they were a bunch of street muggers. What they were is a bunch of fanatical mass-murderers. I guess i see your point, i accept your defense of the SS in that members probably weren't 'criminals' in any sense at the time they joined, but if you point that out you ought also to recognize that a great many were by 1945. To insist that SS members were honest and upstanding members of society when they joined is very much beside the point, what's important is what these oh-so-upstanding people went on to do. I don't want to accuse you of any agenda, but when did anyone say the SS were always petty criminal low-lifes? Why do you even bother refuting this? Finally, for what it's worth, I also believe that any elite force, from any nation, will attract more than its fair share of sociopaths. That's my 2 cents.

[Michael Dorosh]

Members of the SS were not criminals when they joined. In 1945, the Western Allies labelled the Waffen SS a criminal organization, therefore, all members were de facto criminals. That's your fact. The question is, so what?

The racism stuff isn't worth responding to, and certainly not on this forum.

[Corvidae]

hi Tagwyn, i'm not even going to try to address your little tactic, but maybe you should actualy read my post before deciding who i do and dont love,

the rest of you make valid points, and this probably is the wrong forum, but there are a few topics here in this forum that are basicly SS bashing fests, (i think every forum has them), unfortunately most of the bashing is in tagwyns mode of thought, Which is to point at anyone who looks deeper into history than grade B hollywood movies, and scream "nazi lover".

I am trying to hold a middle ground position on the SS as a group of individuals, I am also trying to make people think, and question.

I guess what i realy want is to try to get everyone to HONESTLY look at themselves, and ask themselves, if they had been a german in that era (Without modern hindsite), would they still hold the same views on the SS that they hold today?

*If you were born in germany between 1916 and 1924, what would you think about the SS? and would you perhaps want to join it?*

by the way, i think the SS were well dressed, over priced hamsters, with lots of cool toys.

[z-warfare]

If i had been born in Germany between 1916 and 1924, i would hate and fear the SS, and i wouldn't be allowed to join it.

[Stoffel]

My suggestion to you is read: Soldiers of destruction.

Charles Sydnor found a lot of evidence that proves the SS wasnt just a military formation.

It will answer a lot of your questions.....many of your views are simply wrong.

The SS is indeed a criminal organisation,set up mainly by Theodor Eicke.

His thoughts were the basic grounds for the SS doctrine.

Hatred,racism,humiliation,crimes against humanity,torturing,killing and so on.

Also the view you have about differences between waffen ss and the camps is a false one.

The camps were the basic from where the SS(wafFen SS) emerged,most divisions had strong bands with the camps,their own little factories and their logistical supply lines for cloth,and other stuff(mostly stolen).

Personell was exchanged between the front and guarding duties in the camps,as were troops drawn into the einsatzgruppen.

But enough said now I think.

[zmoney]

I’m not at all a fan of the “what if you were there, what would you do in that situation” defense. I’ll break it down for you; if you saw a group of people in flashy uniforms beating and killing people because they were Jews would you want to join? I mean they do have flashy uniforms.

You also have to remember before the war the SS and SA were responsible for a lot of civil unrest, so its not like young men joined the SS unknowing of what the SS stood for. Everyone who joined went in with open eyes and knew what kind of an organization it was. To use your example of the KKK; it would be like some American joining the KKK and then not understanding why people thought he was a racist bastard. It just didn’t happen that way; everyone knew what they were doing.

I also hate moral equivalence. Just for the record the KKK was and is a stupid social club, not a unit in the US Army, so there goes your argument about that.

[Erik Springelkamp]

I recommend Paul Watkins novel

"Night over day over night"

New York, Knopf (1988).

How can a Brit, raised in the USA, born in 1964, write credibly about the SS? Read it.

I also read the memoirs of a Dutch boy who joined the SS, and Paul's novel resembles what is written in these memoirs, it is just much more powerfull literature.

Paul Watkins 'hero' is a loner who has to join the German armed forces after he graduates from school.

The SS-poster says:

"Your Comrades wait for you at the Waffen-SS"

It is this slogan that pulls him, lonely boy, without any ideology, towards the SS.

Then the book tells how he is drawn into a ruthless world of killing and destruction, and it ends as bleak as the title.

[painfbat]

= = = If i had been born in Germany between 1916 and 1924, i would hate and fear the SS, and i wouldn't be allowed to join it. = = =

Maybe not, you're responding with what you know now. You wouldn't be knowing it back then. Suppose you were born 1928 or 1929, you'd be 4 or 5 years old when HH comes to power. Big change you'll be joining the SS by 1944/1945. Read: Hitler Youth, The Hitlerjugend in War and Peace 1933-1945(Brenda Ralph Lewis)MM Amber Books Ltd. London, ISBN 90-438-0870-9.

Cheers

[z-warfare]

Or i'm Jewish. (Or gay, non-white, etc etc)

I will check out the book tho, thanks

[Bannon DC]

Oh man, we are off and running.

This thread will really l-e-n-g-t-h-e-n when Jason C chimes in. Let me summerize... Nazi Punks F'Off.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Corvidae:

(Myth)

The SS was a racist organization.

Reality.

While it is true that the SS had a very strong racial identity ...

Erm. If it's true, how is it a myth?

[Pandur]

Everyone who joined went in with open eyes and knew what kind of an organization it was. To use your example of the KKK; it would be like some American joining the KKK and then not understanding why people thought he was a racist bastard. It just didn’t happen that way; everyone knew what they were doing.

isnt it like defending freedom, far away; killing poor beaggers(with their trusty AK´s) every day wich never did you people any harm!?

everyone knows whats going on there;

raping, tourcher(verry specific tourter made for "islam" people, US military had some "good" ideas there), murder of civilians,...

in all massive violation of human rights.

everyone joins to "defend freedom" becouse someone flew planes in 2 big towers

or not. some mey join for career, uniform or just payment.

i dont say its wrong, but so i cant say SS was wrong*. its "just" war.

some people here got some kind of "double moral" wich isnt normal any more.

*the jew thingy wasnt neccesery at all, and i cant understand how "adi" came up with this insane idea! about the rest i dont care.

...

big EDIT:

oh and i forgott,

everone here thinks nazis where just racists becouse they tricked you into thinking it they tricked the whole world by beliveing their own, wrong thoughts that "jews" are a race. a jew is like a christ. he belives in the jewish religion.

so i dont know at the moment what the word for "destruction of a religion" is, but nazis wherent racists at least at the jewish part of the story.

you could say that they showed racism against the russian.

and no racism againd the rest of the allieds as far as i can remember.

[ May 17, 2006, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Pandur ]

[Michael Dorosh]

I think perhaps the salient point is that racism in the 1940s was socially acceptable and in fact was a matter of public policy. Canada and the United States had concentration camps for people based on their race; the US even segregated society (and the military) based on race. The concept did not have the stigma attached to it that it does today - thanks largely to the Third Reich experience.

The difference is that the Third Reich commited itself to much more vile acts than simply depriving racial minorities of some basic human rights (which in itself was wrong) and concentrated its energies on genocide as a matter of government policy.

I still don't know that this is the right forum to discuss this. I do think it is very possible to compare the experiences in Germany to that of other nations and positively assess the Third Reich's actions as "worse" than that of others, namely the western Allies. The Soviets performed actions just as bad on Poles, Ukrainians and other groups.

Beyond broad comparisons, though, I see little utility in a detailed accounting of who was "good" and who was "bad".

I also know the Waffen SS' track record for battlefield atrocities and know that racial policies aside, no Allied unit came close to meeting their level of depravity, recklessness, or disregard for military professionalism or basic humanity.

[zmoney]

@Pandur

Your whole post is rubbish and I really don’t feel like wasting too much time with you so I’ll just shoot one obvious hole into your claim about the Nazi’s not being racist. If the Nazi’s were only out to stop a religion and not a race, then why did they bother to take measurements of peoples facial bones? I.e. like measuring people’s noses and foreheads etc……………

I didn’t know by just changing religions my facial features would change. But just going by your grammar in your post you’re probably a genius that knows something I don’t.

[Corvidae]

z-warfare,

It was hard for me to make the visualization, to see myself as a whiteman. To place myself in the position of being a white german christian.

My own ancestors were nearly exterminated by whitemen, But placing myself in the position of the whiteman has alowed me to better understand a lot of things,

JonS,

A myth can be true, and still be a myth, perhaps i could have chosen a better word. A myth is a claim or belief that is accepted without question or though, Maybe doctrine or dogma would have been a better word,

[zmoney]

z-warfare,

It was hard for me to make the visualization, to see myself as a whiteman. To place myself in the position of being a white german christian.

My own ancestors were nearly exterminated by whitemen, But placing myself in the position of the whiteman has alowed me to better understand a lot of things,

Well my friend if you drive a truck, watch tv, play sports, eat fast food or anything I'm sure you do on a daily basis then it should be easy for you to put yourself in the evil whiteman's shoe's.

[Bannon DC]

Ho-ray.

It has finally turned its first corner.

Someone was quick to pull the United States' current war in Iraq into the thread. Let the ill-logic flow. Freakin' predictable.

[Pandur]

If the Nazi’s were only out to stop a religion and not a race

what means only?

and i never said that they wherent raciststs "at all". but the jews are no race and so they just "cant" be racists when they where killing jews. all this measuring of bones, doing blood tests, tests on twins and all this stuff was mostly bull****.

they belived that the jews are a race and you too it seems.

anyways...

not too easy to shoot holes

...grammar in your post you’re probably a genius that knows something I don’t

got some valid things to bash?

[JasonC]

And people try to tell me I'm making it up...