Interesting tidbit-your call

[BCGOVT]

Just an interesting tidbit for those of intrest in the ostfront: Let me quantify for a mo': I currently work for the BC Govt. in a security cappacity. I am A C.F Vet. 12 Years. Infantry-Airborne Regt. Cyprus/Germany/others. I Enjoy this Game, It's fun. Just Fun. Occasionally, I'll Have a beer with a vet at the local Legion, of a different sort. He's a "Kraut", Boxhead", Square-Head", Etc. However, He has an Interesting story-your call here, Just Interesting I think.

(He's currently 91/ish-He's not sure-he says...-but looks 60 !)

"Johhny"-Johannes?-Was/is Dutch. In Early 40's saw his home/country overrun. Decided (Urged by his single mother for the money..) to join the local chapter of the HitlerJugend (He repeatedly has told me the name, but I can't pronounce/spell it-JHW)

Anyway-At 14 (I Joined Army Cadets In the U.K at the age of 12 as we lived on base, moved to Canada in 1979- continued same through cadets, militia, Reg-Force, but what a diffrence from "Johhny")

Anyway, "Johhny", at the time 13/14 joined the Dutch branch of the HitlerJugend. Did well, and according to him, the best thing about it was " my Mum, sisters, and brothers never starved".

Apparently, there was a selective rota for awhile about whom got fed and whom did not.

Long Story Short-"Johhny" fought on the Eastern Front from the age of 17 (!) until the end. Luckily for him, captured by Canucks in 1945 in Holland. Told me many weird/lucky stories, too weird to disbelieve. Do I Doubt him? No. He brought his tunic to the Leigon one night, because I kept pestering him. It was rolled up in a green plastic garbage bag. he showed it to me, (Motheaten rag essentially, But SS patches clearly ripped off..) and a few lads, knowing my intrest, wanted to see it too. (I say "Lads"-These are men in their 80's/90's whom all fought the Germans) Many recognized his medals/badges/decorations. Johhny Didn't buy one drink that night! Did the Lad's Hate him? No..Maybe then, but not 60 years later....Is he a good man? I think so. A man whom served a bad cause? Absolutley. I asked him tonight, If then, they thought they'd win. His response- Aber Naturlisch.

(Of Course!) My thoughts-As A Young Soldier-to an adult one-Love your Kids, Guide them well.

Just me-Cheers. Do the Absolute best you can, always.

"Johnny's" fate? He has a house in the community of Langford, and mostly gets rides home from the Leigon nightly. He's a locally known (To the Military) folks oddity. An Honest to god "Probably" ss Guy....Johnny Hasn't ever admitted to being in the SS, however, if you could see his tunic....

Anyway, a nice old vet. I respect the hell out of him, and anyone like him. Your call...

(Name an SS Marching song, any one, he'll belt it out............."Johhny-How'd you learn that?...."Popular record back then he'll say..."

[Erik Springelkamp]

The fascist youth organisation in the Netherlands was "De Nationale Jeugdstorm" and the boys called themselves "Meeuwen" (sea-mews).

25,000 Dutch boys and men went to serve into the SS. Most of them were killed.

When he was 17 when he went to the Eastern Front (1944?) he was born in 1927, which makes him 78 today, and he joined the Jeugdstorm in 1940.

People were not starving in 1940. Only in late 1944 and early 1945 there was hunger in the cities of the west of the country.

There is a large difference between people who joined the fascists before the Germans occupied the Netherlands - those were kind of idealists because their choice meant social isolation and repression - and those who joined after: those were mostly opportunists, joining the winning side - or so they thought.

[JasonC]

Nazi punks, f*** off.

[SgtMuhammed]

Strangest JasonC post ever.

[stoat]

Not to mention, shortest.

[Shmavis]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Nazi punks, f*** off.

From past threads, I sense this is a sore spot for him.

[BCGOVT]

No Offense meant to anyone. Johhny's a good Man, even If he did serve a bad cause long ago. My father fought them, and fought in Korea, and several tours against the IRA. (Again, no offense!)

You'd be surprised how little Politics and actual Soldiering have in agreement/common. Peace-To all, as, and when you can get it. Cheers-JHW

[Bigduke6]

Originally posted by BCGOVT:

You'd be surprised how little Politics and actual Soldiering have in agreement/common. Peace-To all, as, and when you can get it. Cheers-JHW

I'll risk a thread lock-down to comment on this.

My opinion, soldiers not thinking about politics are dangerous. That nice Dutch grandfather of yours at minimum participated in a concerted effort to enslave an entire nation. Not just invade, enslave.

I doubt very seriously the Soviet communities that Dutchman's S.S. unit passed through thought the S.S. was "nice". Most likely, the Soviet civilians and soldiers that came into contact with that Dutchman's unit thought the formation was a pack of very efficient, very dangerous murderers.

This is not to say there are not plenty of nice ex-Soviet grandfathers that helped emplace Communist-style Socialism in East Europe for a half-century. Of course there were, and of course they were following orders too.

And certainly people do things in their youth, that they would not do once mature.

But that said, I wonder how well that Grandpa would fare if he had to defend his wartime actions in a court. There is such a thing as honest soldiering - and as a rule, from what I have heard and read, what the Waffen S.S. did in the former Soviet Union does not fit into that category.

[Zalgiris 1410]

To be fair about Johnny the SS Dutchman, while I'm assuming that he served in the 'Westland' Regiment of the 5th SS 'Wiking' Pz/Pz Gren Div, I don't think that it murdered anyone as part of the holicaust or for Liebensraum AFAIK. It spent most of its time in the front line, or refitting or reforming to rush back immidiately into it and consequently spent little if any time in the rear zone. I'm not aware of this formation having perpertrated any massacres of Soviet civilians, Jews, Gypsies or Commissars nor of conducting any 'capture no prisioners' episodes either during all the time it served on the Eastern Front.

Also I don't think that the Germans (Nazis) were all that keen on employing non-German Western & Northern Europeans for 'Special Perpose' tasks IMO and do not allow so.

An interesting thing that I would like to point out is that the first contingent of Dutch volenteers for the Waffen-SS were vertually press-ganged into the fighting formation by Eicke IIRC, at least according to Rupert Butler in his book on the 'Totenkopf' Division.

BTW Jason C my problem is with the Einsatzgruppen who shot some of my Jewish relatives by marrage and their wives for good meassure as well the bastards!

[ November 06, 2005, 02:22 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Erik Springelkamp]

Jason C,

I think you were reading something from my post that wasn't there.

And didn't read something that was there.

And I don't appreciate beeing called a Nazi here.

[Corvidae]

looks like the democracyists are out in force,,,

spewing democracy propaganda, and democracy venom,,, conquer a people,, and never let them rest, keep jabbing them with old propaganda,, taunt them,, gloat at them,, you put their leaders on "trial" to justify executing them,,,, and now you still threaten them with your "trials", its a cruel way to rule an empire,, but i suppose it keeps most slaves cowed and intimidated,, you want to persecute a tired old man because he was on the side that lost,,, its easy to do,, the vanquished are weak,, "kick em when they're down" is the way of the democracy,,

leave the poor old guy alone, he faught for his unit, his country, suffered and bled, he shouldnt have to "defend his actions in court",

[Santosdiablo]

Uhm are you nuts?

The raped and killed almost all women they could get their hands on

The Germans took all women betwen 15-25 in the Soviet Unnion to brothels and all women over 25 were sent to slave work camps

But it is ok because he is old?

The SS were after 1943 the scum of the earth even before 43 they were ****

During 1943 the Nazies were running low on men because the Soviets were killing them so to get more SS men they freed alot of convicts and sent them into SS

Before 1943 to enter the SS you needed to do diffrent types of test to prove your worth

Like stand alert with a live grenade on your helmet and just stand untill it exploded

Or dig a hole and after so and so many minutes a tank would drive over that hole with you in it no matter if it was completed or not

But in 1943 they needed more men so they let in the scum of Europe into the ranks anything from thiefs to killers

So just because he is old does not forgive that he most likely raped many many women and children and killed tens if not hundreds of civilians mostely old women and young children

[Aragorn2002]

Oh, please, lock this thread someone...

[JasonC]

If you don't want to be called a Nazi, stop posting drivel lionizing Nazi traitors and murderers as heros and idealists.

I'll kick 'em until the last one is dead and then kick 'em some more. And I've got a double helping for your and yours too, whenever you want it.

Nazi punks, nazi punks, nazi punks - F*** OFF!

Nazi punks, nazi punks, nazi punks - F*** OFF!

Nazi punks, nazi punks, nazi punks - F*** OFF!

[BCGOVT]

Well. As I said Before "It's your call". I don't Agree with the Government he fought for. I certainly don't agree with their political Ideas or aims. I do know that now, he's a nice old chap. And yes, he did have many drinks bought for him by his former enemies, whom are now also nice old chaps. To me, it's History, and belongs in the past. Learn from it yes, repet it, Lord no.

Throw it at him? Well, your call.

Peace to all. -JHW (BCGOVT)

[Erik Springelkamp]

So it is the word idealist you object to?

I didn't use that in any approving way at all.

I meant it to be followers of the ideology, as opposed to those in the occupied countries who collaborated for own profit. Often the idealists were the worst, as the ideology was despicable, although one could argue that acting only for profit is even worse.

I think - as we play simulations about these soldiers - that we should be able to talk about them in an analytic way without being accused of beeing a Nazi.

Although you are a strong analyst on this forum, there seems to be a taboo spot in your mind where analysis cannot enter. You should consider that a weakness.

[Renaud]

A new poster guy tries to relate some personal WWII trivia and get's told to 'F*CK off nazi punk' by a long-time member.

I too feel extreme emotion when confronted with nazi apologists and holocaust deniers. But why punish some poor new guy who's just trying to relate some trivia. I didn't spot any 'lionizing'. Humanizing maybe, hardly lionizing.

[JasonC]

None of it is analysis, all of it is politics, it has no place here. The original post was utterly without point for a game about WW II. So was the second. Oh and spare me the "you decide" crap, it was and is apologetics, all about buying drinks for such a "good man" who committed treason to kill for evil. Next you'll post about how much fun you had chatting up the latest serial killer and whether his mother likes him.

[junk2drive]

Originally posted by Renaud:

A new poster guy tries to relate some personal WWII trivia and get's told to 'F*CK off nazi punk' by a long-time member.

A new guy or some guy that has been banned under a hundred different names? We don't know.

[Erik Springelkamp]

My post was factual: the name of the youth organisation, and the number of Dutch SS-ers. Names and numbers of units is what a lot of discussion here is about, isn't it?

And it was an attack on the arguments of the old man: his mother could not have been starving in 1940, and joining just after the occupation doesn't look good at all.

I just don't go around shouting insults at people who's intentions not clear to me.

[Shmavis]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: JasonC, stick to game advice. Any other comments by you are nothing short of inflammatory. I swear, it's as if you're preparing for an interview for a position at the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

[Fußball]

Originally posted by JasonC:

If you don't want to be called a Nazi, stop posting drivel lionizing Nazi traitors and murderers as heros and idealists.

I'll kick 'em until the last one is dead and then kick 'em some more. And I've got a double helping for your and yours too, whenever you want it.

Nazi punks, nazi punks, nazi punks - F*** OFF!

Nazi punks, nazi punks, nazi punks - F*** OFF!

Nazi punks, nazi punks, nazi punks - F*** OFF!

Wow! Calm down. One man says something that has the letters 'SS' in it and you flip off the hinges. And I highly doubt anyone that posted here is a neo-nazi or national socialist ideologist.

Tschüß!

Erich

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Fußball:

And I highly doubt anyone that posted here is a neo-nazi or national socialist ideologist.

Tschüß!

Erich

There you have it wrong, unfortunately.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Sergei,

Say what you mean, in stead of suggesting something.

I don't want a senseless discussion here, but I don't want to be called a Nazi. I am posting under my own name here, and everything I said on the web can be scrutinized.

[Sergei]

Ah, I see I wrote a bit confusingly - Shmavis meant this thread, while I meant this whole forum.

I'm not claiming that you are a nazi (I don't think you are - of course, here in the interweb, I can neither be certain that you're not A.Hitler writing from his place of exile in South America ), I'm just saying that there actually is at least one Nazi frequenting this forum and several others have been banned before.