general question on russkie TD

[laxx]

hi, l am starting to play russians and l have a question on how to use russian TD properly.

l was mucking around with lsu &su 85, 122, 152 with ap, tungsten and hc @ 1500 m with small panzer lll flamepanzers.

well, accuracy did not lmprove until l moved them to the 800m range.

how r u guys using russian td?

[Panzer76]

As any other russian AFVs without a turret

[CombinedArms]

If I'm following the question, laxx, I think you've already hit on the answer: unlike the German TD's, most of the Russian guns are only accurate & effective at shorter ranges, due to poorer optics and lower muzzle velocities.

Hence, while for a German TD, the general techique is to get in a hulldown overwatch position and blast away at long range at whatever moves, the Ruskies have to get in closer because their guns--though from 85mm and up they have good killing power-- are less accurate. Since, IIRC, a lot of them are built on T34 chassis, they tend to be fast and manueverable, with low psi. The German TD's are often slower & heavier--some are built on PzIII chassis, and aren't too fast and have high psi.

So use the Russians' speed & manueverability and try to get flanking positions on your targets. Anything that fires HC rounds needs to be particularly close. HC firing guns are usually short howitzers w/ limited accuracy. But HC can be lethal at very short ranges.

[ March 18, 2003, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[laxx]

thanks for the reply, especially the bit on T34 chassis.

IMHO, l like the StuG because of the strong frontal armor and low profile which suits the TD role, rather than thinking of it as a cheap Panzer (which is not). so in a pure armor role, l would usually buy a. StuG over say a IV or a late III. l will do more test tonite but l suspect there lsnt an equilvalent of the StuG in the russian armory.

thanks, er, any comments on tungsten versus AP ?

[Sublime]

Originally posted by laxx:

thanks for the reply, especially the bit on T34 chassis.

IMHO, l like the StuG because of the strong frontal armor and low profile which suits the TD role, rather than thinking of it as a cheap Panzer (which is not). so in a pure armor role, l would usually buy a. StuG over say a IV or a late III. l will do more test tonite but l suspect there lsnt an equilvalent of the StuG in the russian armory.

thanks, er, any comments on tungsten versus AP ?

Well, in a pure armor role Tigers, Jagdpanzer IV/70s, Panthers, and King Tigers are great too. But yes StuGs are an excellent choice in pure armor. A major advantage that Pz III and IV's have on StuGs though is their versatility. In pure armor, you may well be better off getting a StuG, but not in combined arms or a different scenario. Dont read this wrong - StuGs would still be useful, but Pz IV's or III's are a lot better against infantry.

Of course you have to remember the early model StuGs (most notoriously for me the IIIB) suck IMHO. They have short guns and are made for infantry support actually, and are pathetic against tanks. I dont think IIRC the StuGs become tank killers until their IIIF model or somefink. The IIIF8 is a great one, and the IV's are good.

As far as Tungsten vs AP, whats your question?

AP is armor piercing ammo best used against tanks. Tungsten is armor piercing ammo as well, but it is made out of Tungsten which is extremely hard and therefore has higher penetration power. Most tanks will save their tungsten until they need it.

There probably isnt an exact equivalent of the StuG in the Russian armory... You have to remember they didnt make this game and create the units out of thin air, and carefully balanced it as such. You have to make do with whatever the side really had, and the Russians and Germans were of completely different minds on many of their tactics and strategies, and also equipment... (not to mention ideologies...)

So while their may not be a Russian StuG, there are other things the Russians have the Germans dont. Also remember you have to use significantly different tactics for the Axis and Allies, if you try to play as the Soviets with German tactics you'll lose (except for occasional flukes..)

Also the Soviet TDs you mentioned - They arent exactly TD's. They're more of assault cannons. They work for TD work as well, but I find the best Soviet 'TD's are actually their MBTs - in the later war years T-34/85s and IS-2s work great for me...

hope this helps...

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Sublime:

Also the Soviet TDs you mentioned - They arent exactly TD's. They're more of assault cannons. They work for TD work as well, but I find the best Soviet 'TD's are actually their MBTs - in the later war years T-34/85s and IS-2s work great for me...

hope this helps...

I would agree. For me, the best all around infantry support tanks AND tank killers in the Russian armory are the T-34/85 and the IS-2. The T34/85, in particular, is a cheap and effective all around good tank. But if you happen to get an SU-85, use it like a T34, only w/o turret. The higher caliber guns are really for infantry support--they can kill a tank, but their primary role is blasting out infantry with their huge HE rounds. I don't think the Russians ever really bought into the TD concept.

And there's no Russian equivalent to a Stug--which started out as an infantry support weapon (the short gunned StugIIIB) but morphed into a TD when armed with an excellent long 75. Note that the Germans needed lots of cheap, turretless TDs to keep up with the 90,000 Shermans and T34s that the Allies fielded.

[MikeyD]

The main difference between the Russian and German TDs is the Germans are better able to take incoming Russian fire (especially against 76mm gun tanks) and can therefore be used much more aggressively. With Russian TDs you have to be sure of what's facing you, and use combined-arms tactics in a mutually supporting way to minimize the treat as you advance.

[Dave H]

Originally posted by laxx:

...

how r u guys using russian td?

I don't have a lot of experience with them, but so far my main use is as large bonfires billowing black smoke for most of the battle.

In a PBEM I had a regular SU-85 hull down which fired at and missed a stationary elite Panther three times at < 250 meters. The Panther casually turned toward the loud nuisance and lit it up with one shot. :mad:

[JasonC]

The SU-122 is unlike the others, because its gun is pretty ineffective against armor. (See below on HEAT - HC). It is fine at smoking infantry.

I find the SU-85 (in 1943, only) the most practical of the SUs. (100s are fine late, but that is a rare case). The power of the 85 is that it can kill 80mm front beasties like the StuG (and Pz IVs with hull hits) at reasonable ranges and side angles. Which the T-34/76s of its era don't do very well. Basically, you take them in 1943 to get the 85mm gun early.

Despite the raw penetration numbers, though, it is outmatched by Tiger Is. It apparently suffers from shatter gap, and in addition cower becomes a serious issue with the penetration ability so marginal. Panthers are worse, from the front anyway. I've seen many an 85 "shell broke up" result on these critters. You really need a flank even with the 85. At least with a flank and low side angle you can kill a Tiger I if you have an 85, though.

How do I use the 85s? I leave them in positions within my controlled area, ready to hunt into view of enemy armor. Then I move to flank the enemy with T-34s or T-70s. When the enemy goes for those (distracted, turned, etc) I spring the SUs out of cover - individually - to take their shots.

I find the SU-152s and ISUs harder to use. The SU-152 holds out the promise of KOing even the nastier critters from the front at reasonable ranges. Same basic tactic. But in practice, I find this a risky proposition. The biggest problem is low ROF. The hit chance on the first round is modest, and the enemy reacts long before you get off the second.

They don't withstand the guns of the better beasties well at all. Even the ISUs - the SU-152s are hopeless on that score. ISU armor may help at range against regular 75s, but Panther and Tiger guns at ranges the ISU can get a first round hit are still deadly.

Even the plain 75s kill ISUs at medium range when the side angle is zero, as it must be for them to shoot back. The only late Russian AFV that is effectively armored against 75L48s is the IS-2. If you expect armor rather than a bigger gun to do anything for you, you have to go whole hog and take those.

So, I with the bigger SUs and ISUs find myself doing top hat drills to get off a single shot, with modest accuracy. And then half the time the shooter cowers and blows its chance, sometimes muffing the retreat as well and dying for its pains. The target still has to be distracted or my shooter is likely to die. The only real benefit is the target can have turned back to front facing and will still be bagged if the first round is a hit.

As for killing infantry, the big ones are fine at it, though the HE load is somewhat limited. That only prevents area fire tactics, though. The ROF is so low and the effect per round so high, the small load is still enough for fully IDed infantry targets. Even T-34s don't have much trouble on this score, though. They make up in ammo load and ROF what they lack in bang per round.

After the T-34/85 is out, I strongly prefer them to the SU-85s. But in 1943 or early 44, the SU-85 is a good early counter to 80mm fronts. The SU-100 is only available late, and is worth the extra hitting power against the better German tanks, compared to the T-34/85.

I consider SU-152s early, and ISUs late, to be "gambit" items. If the enemy has ubertanks, you have a coin flip at best to win or lose in a minute or two of armor confrontation. I don't take them often.

When I do it is (1) on offense (2) expecting thick fronted German AFVs and (3) several of them (e.g. armor force type). Attacking superior armor is so hard, a gamble is sometimes the best you've got. If I only expect a handful of AFVs, I prefer T-34/85s and numbers. You can flank 1-2 thick AFVs, but not a whole platoon of them.

I prefer the ISU-122 among the "gambit" big assault guns, since its ROF isn't quite as bad as the 152s. The HE is still plenty powerful, and the long 122 AP is fine against critters. Unfortunately its base rariety is somewhat higher.

As for HC rounds in the SU-122, they give it a marginal AT capability. But there are so few of the rounds available they make little difference. You can't count on them as 80mm front killers, even though the round has the potential to do the trick, because you can't count on availability, survival, proper use, and above all hits.

As for APCR (T rounds), it marginally improves the 85mm in 1944, at close ranges only. That helps when stalking Tiger Is in particular (also Panther turret fronts in point blank duels, to be sure). But you have to get so close, and the rounds are available late (44), it is the T-34/85 that benefits most from them, not the SU-85.

I hope this helps.

[demoss]

The only late Russian AFV that is effectively armored against 75L48s is the IS-2.

T-44 and IS-3 work just fine also. If you can get them.

[laxx]

hi,

thanks. especially to Jason on your comments. I did some more test, but realised, as one poster said, using tactics which I am familiar with playing german tanks isn't compatible with russian afv.

I like the fact that Russian TDs move fast, but their optics is mostly Regular (if not all), I am trying out fast moving swarms against German tanks. But kinda hurts to see so many casualties littered on the battlefield, and by small light German tanks too.

[MrNoobie]

Originally posted by laxx:

hi,

I like the fact that Russian TDs move fast, but their optics is mostly Regular (if not all), I am trying out fast moving swarms against German tanks. But kinda hurts to see so many casualties littered on the battlefield, and by small light German tanks too.

haha i know this tactic all to well. it is disheartening seeing em get knocked out one by one. ive been playing the russians since i got this game i have only played the germans like only twice. hell by now i shouldve learned a few tactics using russian armor (44-45) against those big bad cats. i do like the challenge but i find that ive been losing too many times

[Amedeo]

Originally posted by JasonC:

The only late Russian AFV that is effectively armored against 75L48s is the IS-2.

Don't forget the SU-85M and the SU-100. In fact those TDs are more resilent than the IS-2 since this heavy tank still has a very vulnerable turret front.

Regards,

Amedeo

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Amedeo:

Don't forget the SU-85M and the SU-100. In fact those TDs are more resilent than the IS-2 since this heavy tank still has a very vulnerable turret front.

Regards,

Amedeo

I think the SU-85M is an interesting AFV--it's got pretty good sloped frontal armor on its upper hull, but it is weaker in the lower hull. It can survive a Panther hit to the upper hull at ranges longer than 1000m, but it's vulnerable at closer ranges.

SO, the SU-85M is an interesting exception to the rule that you should try to close with German tanks if you've got an 85mm gun. This baby, in my experience, is one AFV that can try to go hull down and duke it out with Panthers at longer ranges. The Panther may score the first hit due to its more accurate gun, but you've got a chance to survive that and keep slugging until you land a killing hit of your own.

[laxx]

CombinedArms,

*Dang* I tried this evening with 2 SU-85M against 3 StuG III (long nose, the AI chose it).

Well it was an unfair skirmish, each SU-85M engaged 1 on 1 with a StuG as it moved along the road to the VL.

2 SU vs 3 StuG

1 Vet + 1 Reg vs 3 Green

result: 3 burning hulks of a StuG

thing was, the SUs usually managed to fire first. A few StuG rounds shattered but did not penetrate the SU, this was at 450m.

I am impressed, may have found my StuG replacement afterall...

[ March 21, 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by laxx:

CombinedArms,

*Dang* I tried this evening with 2 SU-85M against 3 StuG III (long nose, the AI chose it).

[snip]

I am impressed, may have found my StuG replacement afterall...

Glad to be of service...

[Sublime]

I ran some tests as well and the SU 85M rocks. Against StuGs it does well, though it was a lot less of match against some Tigers... Tigers look like they give it a run for it's money ( I didnt do full tests, only 2 QBs, each with 2 SU 85M vs 3 StuG III lates and 1 StuG IV, second one with a platoon of Tiger tanks with reg crewsO

I didnt get to check every where but does anyone know offhand the SU 85M's availibility? This could be a problem as I noticed it wasnt availible in 1944 (central front, maybe I'm wrong) It'd be bad if it's only a 1945 tank... that leaves a lot of time open but it's still a bitchin TD..

[laxx]

sublime:

yup...late 1944, around oct-ish onwards, are the 85m and su-100 available.

between the 100 and 85m, i like the 85m coz it stores more rounds than the su-100. however, the blast tends to be quite spectacular against light german tanks.

[Sublime]

Ok late 44... But still, thats from October 1944 onwards! Germany invaded Russia on June 22nd, so that leaves 3 and a half odd years of combat not covered! The problem isnt as serious for Soviets earlier the war, T-34s do nicely and in a pinch a KV will take on much anything (watch for 88s though)

Problems arise in 1942-1943 though..

Any wonderful ideas or possibly another excellent essay by Jason?

[laxx]

Sublime:

from the little i have read, russia did not have co-ordinated combined arms in the early stages, it was common for tanks to go their way while troops attacked with their own manoeuvres. so with that, i think pre-late 44, i will start engaging with tank platoons and doing 2-prong attacks or some other fancy movements, anything but long direct frontal engagements.

[Sublime]

Thats a discussion on tactics in general. Im wondering about the armor aspect. For example, July 1943. Now take out AT guns/infantry/etc.

And just enter the tank aspect.

Germans can get Panthers, Panzers, Tigers, etc.

The best the Russians can field is KV 1 S and T-34's it looks like to me. Anyone know a good Russian TD for 1943? What about pre october '44?

And anything for 1941-42? Please note I dont want KV recommendations for 41-42, Im looking to see if I missed an AFV i didnt think of or know about.

[Scheer]

Originally posted by Sublime:

Thats a discussion on tactics in general. Im wondering about the armor aspect. For example, July 1943. Now take out AT guns/infantry/etc.

And just enter the tank aspect.

Germans can get Panthers, Panzers, Tigers, etc.

The best the Russians can field is KV 1 S and T-34's it looks like to me. Anyone know a good Russian TD for 1943?

Well, it isnt exactly a TD but the Valentine IX becomes aviable in jan. 43 .

It´s 57 mm L/50 pentetrates 112 mm at 100 meters and 101 mm at 500 meters, 88 mm at 1000 meters. So in theory it COULD kill a cat.

In proving this theory, I lost like five platoons of them against german armor ( mostly cats, though ) in two games.

My tactics may suck to a high degree, but even at sumthing like 150 meters the shots bounced off. And the Valentine IX has no mg, bad against inf.

However, I´ve read from some Ubergrog ( Jason_C ? ), that he was/is able to kill cats with Val´s.

Its a gamble at best, I would say. But you get it in jan 43 ...

[ March 28, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Scheer ]

[Redwolf]

Some remarks on previous points:

If you use Russian AFVs with the 85mm gun, watch the kind of AP ammo you have, before April 44 it is AP with large HE filler, which basically sucks from a penetration standpoint but makes nice holes once it goes through. Side note: seems the HE effect is not actually removed after that, only the penetration gets better.

I find that the vehicle turn model in CMBB leaves to be desired and distorts the relation between tanks and SP guns.

[JasonC]

Sublime - the Russian problem in 1942 and 1943 stems largely from cherry picking on the part of German human players, always selecting the single best weapon out at the time. The reality was only a small portion of the German AFV fleet was clearly superior to the bulk of the Russian one - though that portion increased in 1943, certainly.

So you see Germans taking 80mm front StuGs with long 75s almost exclusively, from the moment they are out. Even though the bulk of the German force at the time were 50mm to 70mm front tanks with short 75s or long 50s. StuGs were actually quite rate until the Pz III was abandoned, and all its chassis production switched over to them, which did not happen until 1943. But in CM QBs, you see little else in 1942 armor fights, when humans pick the vehicles. Similarly in 1943, you see Tigers everywhere when the real guys were mostly driving a mix of Pz IV longs and Pz III longs.

In a cherry picking war, what cards do the Russians have in 42 and 43? Captured StuG Fs - both sides can pretend a rare best vehicle was the only thing in Russia lol. A few 1941 model T-34/57s. Their high velocity 57 is effective against 80mm fronts. From September 1942 onward, lend lease Shermans are available, which are marginally better than T-34s against the thicker German beasties out at the time - though still hopeless against Tigers.

In 1943, a steady stream of marginal improvements show up for the Russians. In January they get Valentine IXs, which are cheap and have a decent gun. Useful against 80mm fronts, marginal vs. Tigers (especially due to cowering). In February, rare SU-152s become available. Slow rate of fire and vunerable themselves, but able to kill if they can hit. In May, the SU-122s finally get HC ammo. Only effective to about 500m because of poor accuracy, and best against 80mm types again, but better than the uniform HE they have before then. Then in August the T-34/57s, later war varieties appear. And in September the SU-85s finally show up.

In January of 1944, the 76s get tungsten but that is a marginal improvement only. They still need point blank or flank shots, or both against Tigers. In February the main improvement appears in the form of the T-34/85. In April the IS-2s and ISU-122s appear, with a gun powerful enough to kill things and in the case of the IS-2 armor that is actually useful against 75L48s at sufficiently long range. Unfortunately, armor cower limits even the IS-2s. "Not supposed to fight armor" is, I suppose, the silly notion.

If you have an opponent who insists on cherry picking, the solution is not to search for a rare counter but to get a new opponent. Someone who doesn't need to have Tiger Is every time in 1943, or 80mm long 75 StuGs every time in 1942. If you must fight such people, throw realism to the wind and use flocks of Valentine IXs or T-34/57s shamelessly. It is no gamier than what they are doing.

[Sublime]

Ah thank you Jason, noted and saved. Great timing as well, great to get this after work...

Anyways thanks again.. I'll look into the Valentines, and especially the T-34/57mms...

I'd heard of them before but never actually encountered one yet.