What are recon troops for?

[DaffyDuck]

I understand pioneers, they are mostly for demolitions, mine clearing, but can act as regular infantry if they need to. But what are Recon troops for? I'd like to know both historically what their purpose was, and in the game how they are best used.

I was selecting troops in a game recently (as Soviets) and noticed that a recon company came with more men, was cheaper, and didn't come with ATRs which I never seem to get much use out of (any hints on how to use them would be appreciated, too). I was shopping for infantry and they looked like a better deal all around. Why were they cheaper? was it because they didn't have the ATRs? Is it appropriate to use them as my main infantry force? Is it historically accurate or gamey? Also, did I miss something, is there some inherent disadvantage to Recon troops that is the reason they're cheaper? Are they usually cheaper, or did I just happen to be in a time/place where they were?

Sorry for the flurry of questions, I'd just like to understand them next time I'm looking at a force selection screen.

Thanks in advance.

[kenfedoroff]

Good questions.

I don't think Recon troops have any special in-game spotting abilities, but I am no expert.

I wonder if they cover in-game ground faster because they carry less heavy weapons?

Maybe some grogs will show up.

Ken

[Sergei]

Infantry prices depend on how many men there are in a squad and how many SMG's and LMG's they carry, i.e. their combat value. There are different kinds, though, available at different times and for different forces (infantry/mechanized etc.) so I don't know which you are talking about. I don't think recon troops are particularly cheap though, especially as they tend to come in large squads (11 or 12 men) although later on there's only three squads per platoon.

ATR's aren't attached to infantry companies but battalions IIRC and there's no Recon battalions so that's not the explanation.

Historically regiments and divisions would have had their recon elements (Aufklärung in German). Their main purpose was not to fight but to provide intelligence for the HQ's, but like anyone they too would be used when that was necessary. A Recon Company wouldn't have any special abilities tactically, but operationally it helps that they don't have any heavy weapons (HMG's, mortars) so they can be sent snuffing around with much greater freedom.

[YankeeDog]

AFAIK, recon troops have no special abilities in game beyond what you'd expect from their weapons loadout, HQ bonuses, experience level, etc. Also, I think all infantry squad are equal as far as movement speed, endurance etc. no matter what their weapons load is; only heavy weapons teams like HMG and mortars are slower.

The cost of all infantry formations in CM depends on their manpower, weapons loadout and OOB. Some Soviet Recon units especially tend to be rather poorly armed (high proportion of just bolt action rifles; few automatic weapons) and have few, if any, heavy weapons teams in their OOB. There are other Recons units that have carry more automatic weapons and are more expensive. In general, though, recon companies tend to have few, if any, heavy weapons so they can move quickly on foot. This lack of heavy weapons tends to make the Company-level recon units cheaper. Recon squads also often (but not always) have fewer men, which makes them cheaper (but less powerful) on a per-squad basis.

IRL, Regimental and Divisional Recon units' primary purpose is to maintain contact with the enemy and gather information about strength, location, intention, etc. On the attack, they often scout ahead of the main body, screen a flank for enemy activity, etc. On the defense, they may actively patrol in front of the MLR to gain information about enemy intentions. They are not simply observers, though. Company-sized infantry recon units do often "troll for contact," seeking information about the enemy by forcing him to engage, or by staging a strong patrol or probing attack and seeing how strongly the enemy reacts. Another important function of recon units that you don't really see in CM is terrain scouting; units in WWII especially didn't always have good maps of the terrain they were moving though, and recon units would be the first sent forward to gain details about what lay ahead along the main body's axis of movement.

In WWII, recon troops sometimes, but not always, received special training in scouting, night combat, identification of enemy units, etc. At the very least, recon units from veteran formations would have learned these skills on the job. It's difficult to generalize about the training recon units received because it varies so much by nationality and time period.

In the game, I think the best way for scenario designers to represent these "special skills" is by tweaking recon HQ units' bonuses more towards stealth and command, and away from morale and combat. As far as their 'realistic' use, they would more likely be seen in smaller engagements -- probes, patrol-type meeting engagements, hit-and-fade attacks. You would be least likely to see them in a prepared assault, either on the attack or defense. Generally speaking, it was not the purpose of recon troops to get involved in these kinds of sustained slugfest fights. They would have done their job previous to these large actions. On the attack they would scout the enemy positions beforehand (or maintain contact with and harry a retreating enemy after the initial MLR has already been breached). They also might be detailed to screen an exposed flank against counterattck. On defense recon units do a large proportion of the active patrol work in front of the MLR looking for signs of where and when a major enemy attack was coming.

This is not to say that recon units didn't get involved in major assaults in the like. Sometimes, they were the troops available and were thrown into the fray, or sometimes they simply got caught in the middle of a larger engagment. This just wasn't their primary purpose.

Hope this answers some questions.

Cheers,

YD

[DaffyDuck]

Thanks for the help. I never really understood what Recon troops were.

So from a strictly game playing standpoint you distinguish recon troops from regular infantry strictly by equipment and number of men. They're just infantry with a different loadout. You might pick a recon company if you wanted to stretch your points by getting more men with lighter weapons, for instance.

From a more historical perspective, you would use them to scout out an area, but your main infantry force would probably be a regular rifle company/battalion.

Does this sound right?

[junk2drive]

good read guys, but in cm do they serve a purpose? or is it just for historical force makeup?

[Joachim]

German recon troops were not used to defend ground or to assault but to

a) capture ground and hold it till regular reinforcements arrive. That's why they have less men but more LMGs (or less men per LMG if you want it that way). Usually btn has some organic hvy wpns like IGs and ATGs. They are equipped to operate on their own, but not for long.

patrol areas that are thinly manned, establish contact but not fight it out.

c) stop enemy recce

d) quickly move to threatened areas (see a))

They are usually better troops than line infantry and to valuable to waste in assaults.

Most GE divisons had a recce btn.

Lack of hvy wpns in the Soviet recce formations suggests they were just armed for self defence and thus their only task was scouting. IIRC their number was smaller per divison (and per 10000 men).

For CM:

Soviet recce makes cheap scouts while German recce is usually better in the overwatch role where they take less casualties.

German recce btns are usually good combined arms forces. Add some tanks, StuGs or TDs and you have a good task force.

Gruß

Joachim

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Recon units have rifles and quite a lot of ammo, which makes them quite good in ranged infantry fighting. i usually use them to make advancing enemy infantry stuck early in their advance by forcing them to fight forward positioned recon units.

the recon units will withdraw to second line positions once they have stalled the enemy advance. to make this more effective, i usually give the recon units a mortar (use HQ to direct mortar fire so that the mortar has chances to pull back) and LMG. they are good for pinning the enemy infantry once they have been located, giving the recon squads much needed time to pull back.

i usually have a tank or two located so that they can move fast to support the withdrawing forward units so that they don't get overrun. these tanks usually have favorable positions to knock out enemy tanks that may come after the recon units.

and if one is lucky enough, one's enemy will waste some artillery rounds on the recon positions. by which time the recon units have of course already pulled back to their secondary positions.

usually recon units manage to escape with only light casualties. if you have reason to expect that your enemy will have support vehicles with their forward infantry, you may want to give the recon units light anti-tank weapons. but if enemy is real strong in armor, it's better to try to hide your forward positioned recon and let the enemy forces pass their positions. enemy armor won't be able to support infantry once they have advanced enough, because it would make them too vulnerable to your tanks.

recon units are also good for securing the flanks.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by DaffyDuck:

From a more historical perspective, you would use them to scout out an area, but your main infantry force would probably be a regular rifle company/battalion.

No, they're not scouts for a company or a battalion but for a regiment or division. A battalion or company scouts its way by itself, the regimental or divisional HQ needs their own recon troops. But you would have situations such as:

1) The Recon company has been tasked to scout ahead on the road and come across a small delaying party. The enemy wants to hold you back so that the column behind you must stop to deploy some of the men to fight and disrupt the march order, so the recon troops will try to push through on their own.

2) The usual SNAFU - specialists have to serve as a last reserve when everything else fails.

[With Clusters]

Um, this is slightly off topic, and someone has probably come up with this idea before, but perhaps to improve FOW, and give recon units a greater role, would be for the new game engine (CMX or whatever) to give each player 2 "maps" to work from. One would be an intelligence derived topographic map for the whole battlefield, looking exactly like what a commander on the field might have (lines and drawings on a paper map). The other map/screen would be the same as what we see currently in CM (not a map exactly, but the view of the action, from all the different angles, live action, etc.). But if the battle area is "new" to any side's units, they would have to "explore" visually (think something like the blacked out area in Empire) to see the terrain as it actually is (and of course there could be discrepencies between the 'paper' map and the actual combat screen) when it comes into LOS. Defenders would most likely have a big advantage as they would usually "know" (and thus be able to see) all the ground on the battle screen, but the attacking force would have to "discover" the territory as it advances. In a meeting engagement, both sides would be "blind" as to the terrain they were entering into. Am I beating a dead and previously mentioned horse? If so, sorry for the interuption, please continue with the thread as usual

[Panzerjaeger]

As far as I'm concerned, recon troops can identify vehicles much better than regular infantry.

But that's just me.

[junk2drive]

pzj if that could be tested, it would mean they have better spotting ability and then worth procuring. it may vary by country and date.

[Redwolf]

No better abilities, but they are often cheaper when the platoon in question has few men and/or no automatic weapons (LMGs and assault rifles cost a bit more).

[Grisha]

Soviet recon troops were distinctly different from their German counterparts in that they gathered intelligence mainly from observation. As armies go, the Soviets were very high in numbers of troops dedicated to reconnaissance and intelligence. Among the reconnaissance units there was a percentage who were well trained "razvedchiki." Basically, the equivalent of special ops. To give an idea of how prevalent these type of troops were, the average rifle division normally had about a squad of razvedchiki. But, for the most part, reconnaissance troops were trained somewhat better than the normal infantry. As the war progressed and the Soviets took on greater amounts of offensive operations, the use of reconnaissance in force became quite widespread with entire reconnaissance battalions being employed.

One way to play this in CMBB is to create a scenario with two Soviet objectives, one is assault, and the other, reconnaissance. Before the game begins, the Soviet player randomly determines which objective he will use, based on a 50-50 percentage. If the objective is reconnaissance, the Soviet player must identify 60% of Axis heavy weapons and vehicles to achieve an intelligence victory. Proof of identification can be provided by saving turns. The German player determines victory normally, but how he fights may have a large impact on the game.

Finally, if interested in how Soviet recon forces operated, follow the link below to "Star," and read the story.

[General Bolt]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

good read guys, but in cm do they serve a purpose? or is it just for historical force makeup?

What the others said about scouting, maintaining contact covering a flank is all true at a divisional/corps level.

In CM the contact has been maintained or there would be no opforce on the map - that would be boring scenario. Unless enemy re-enforcements are scheduled at the side of the map - you can assume your flanks are covered.

Bottom line- most CM battles are company upto battalion level, so in CM they serve no real special purpose.

[Sardaukar]

Well, one good definition for armoured reconnaissance unit is: "Drive down that road until you get blown up"

Cheers,

M.S.

[Wisbech_lad]

Heh, when playing Ruskies I usually take the Recon C as core infantry. Huge ammo load out, and big squads means they have great staying power. Maybe a platoon or two of SMG heavy troops for an assualt team.

Then support weapons, armour & arty for the punch, with the infantry to locate targets, and plink away.

Given how low German infantry ammo levels can be (26!) Recon C can bleed them dry of ammo at reasonable range (150 m or so) for little loss.

[DaffyDuck]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Heh, when playing Ruskies I usually take the Recon C as core infantry. Huge ammo load out, and big squads means they have great staying power. Maybe a platoon or two of SMG heavy troops for an assualt team.

Then support weapons, armour & arty for the punch, with the infantry to locate targets, and plink away.

Given how low German infantry ammo levels can be (26!) Recon C can bleed them dry of ammo at reasonable range (150 m or so) for little loss.

I like this, carefully selecting troops for their ammo and weapons loadout in order to match your style of play or to fill a certain roll you have in mind. But I'm curious to know if this is considered gamey (unrealistic, ahistorical, etc.), or just a matter of selecting the right men for a specific job.

[Sergei]

It is cherry picking IMHO. If there was just one recon company per division and one recon platoon per regiment (was that the case?) and their main task was not the sort of heavy combat that is the norm in CM quick battles, then we can easily see that situations where recon troops were the main force were only a tiny fraction of all the fighting.

Not that I'd have particular problem with that, especially as I seldom play QB's anyway. But I don't personally consider them that great, the lack of LMG's makes them teethless in comparison to rifle squads, and only three squads per platoon is not good.

[Grisha]

Using Soviet reconnaissance troops for line combat (other than reconnaissance in force) was ahistorical. There were high level orders early on informing unit and formation commanders to leave recon troops to reconnaissance, and not as a 'free pool' for line troop replacements. It took a lot of training to make good scouts, so throwing them indiscriminately into the line was a waste of resources. Being the 'eyes and ears' of the rifle divisions required experience, training and motivation (recon troops had more freedoms than line troops - a higher status), so it was much better in the long run to let them continue to do what they did best: scout.

A rifle division by 1943 had a recon company of 70-80 men, and each rifle regiment, a recon section (horse, 10 men) and recon platoon (foot, 30 men), roughly. These are full strength numbers too, which almost never occurred in real life.

Of course, if the intent is to mix and match in a freeform game format, then anything's fair. But, if players are interested in historical scenarios or gameplay, Soviet recon troops should only be seen in situations where the scenario, and mission, match their function.

[Cannon-fodder]

On the German recon system at least, I refer you here It's a pretty reliable American intelligence report on German recon. I know this doesn't answer your questions about recon troops directly, but it should give everyone a better idea about what they were for.

TimG