Rifle squad vs. Gun at point-blank range?

[dmaas]

I was just playing "RAS Point133No6," which includes a couple of Soviet 76.2mm guns. I was playing the Germans and managed to flank one of the guns with a rifle squad. The squad closed to point-blank range and engaged the gun crew from the rear. I figured a five-man gun crew would not be able to stand up to my six-man rifle squad. But that's not the way it turned out. My rifle guys had a good 20-30 seconds of shooting, but didn't kill anyone or even surpress the gun. All this time the gun was turning towards my squad very very slowly. Finally it finished its turn and fired a single round, killing all of my men. I'm new to this game, but it seems weird that the gun crew could manage to turn the gun around and fire a shot while in very close-range combat with a rifle squad, and have that shot instantly eliminate the squad.

I noted that the gun crew was "veteran" and my troops were "green." Could that have made the difference?

[Shmavis]

Originally posted by dmaas:

I was just playing "RAS Point133No6," which includes a couple of Soviet 76.2mm guns. I was playing the Germans and managed to flank one of the guns with a rifle squad. The squad closed to point-blank range and engaged the gun crew from the rear. I figured a five-man gun crew would not be able to stand up to my six-man rifle squad. But that's not the way it turned out. My rifle guys had a good 20-30 seconds of shooting, but didn't kill anyone or even surpress the gun. All this time the gun was turning towards my squad very very slowly. Finally it finished its turn and fired a single round, killing all of my men. I'm new to this game, but it seems weird that the gun crew could manage to turn the gun around and fire a shot while in very close-range combat with a rifle squad, and have that shot instantly eliminate the squad.

I noted that the gun crew was "veteran" and my troops were "green." Could that have made the difference?

A big difference. Your 6 man squad against his 5 man crewed weapon and his experience advantage doesn't put the odds very much in your favor.

[Zalgiris 1410]

How close was your infantry squad, for how long was it within range of the gun crews small arms return fire, that could also explain how some of the crew managed to survive long enough to pop them. Also if your troops were moving bear in mind that their fire effects are also reduved by adout half I think so the experience difference and the circumstances probably reasonably account for the result.

BTW I've always had a problem with the fact that gun crews arn't armed with (or have picked up and equipt themselves) rifles and may be the odd SMG, a lot of my reading and a few pics that I've seen have them so. Some things are SOP, even when not according to the official TO&E. Also at times a lot of ordinary infantry men had to replace members of gun crews and to assist with manning captured guns and help bring up the ammo.

I think that gun crews arn't provisioned with enough light arms in CM IMO, I'm a bit sick of them just having pistol side arms especially for veterans etc, but anyway.

[SteveS]

Then again it could just be the good old random number generator throwing up a freak result. In CMBO I once had a 10 man CW regular rifle squad stationed within 25 metres of the back of a german pillbox. The pillbox got knocked out by another asset (this event had no effect on the rifle squad), the crew ran out the back and straight passed the rifle squad who did nothing. As the crew ran past there were three pistol shots and three of my squad are taken out. The crew ran off to safety.

freak results happen quite a lot in CM. There are a lot of throws of the dice in an average game.

[Denwad]

guns do have rifles, so do flamethrowers and rocket crews but they are abstracted, you can't control their fire

they fire at the greatest threat

[Brent Pollock]

...always sounds like pistols, not rifles.

I think that was done in CM to stop them being unrealistically put into the front line if their heavy weapon was KOd.

[imported_KG_ThorsHammer]

The experience level was the factor. Green troops arent good at a lot of things, included in that is their aim. most of their shots probably missed, while the veteren gun crew persevered until they got off what probably was canister if they killed them all with one shot.

[dmaas]

Thanks for the replies. I'm guessing "green" vs. "veteran" is the answer.

My squad was literally as close as they could get without being on top of the gun (maybe 5-10m), and not moving. I don't think it was a freak since I've seen this happen twice now.

Is it possible to surpress a gun at all? Even with my own assault gun and squads firing at the Soviet gun, I never saw them "take cover".

[stoat]

It is certainly possible. Most of the time it takes heavier weapons to do the job, though. Mortars, machine guns, armor, and arty will all pin a gun crew. At 5-10 meters you were probably better off assaulting into the gun pit, considering what happened.

[Andrew H.]

It also matters whether or not the gun is dug in - that gives the crew a lot more protection.

IME, the usual result of point-blank rifle fire vs. a gun is that the gun starts to come to bear on the troops, then gets suppressed and knocked out. But green vs. vet, a six man squad, dug in, moving fast - all are things that might add to the guns favor - particularly if small arms fire from the gun further cut the greens' firepower.

[Corvidae]

To surpress a gun with small arms fire ,,, you realy ought to hit them from two directions, A split squad would have been a good idea,,,

Also the freak incident factor plays a part in CM.

Think of it as factors outside the scope of the imediate battle,,,,,

the can of bad sardines your troops ate yesterday,

the death of a popular and respected officer last week,

these things are factored into the game as miscelanius factors that can slant the outcome of a battle,, and you have no control over them,,,

[imported_KG_ThorsHammer]

I've found that small arms fire doesnt really do a good job at surpressing a gun; remember, the gun has a shield in the front that helps stop direct fire. Mortars and mgs do a pretty good job, as do snipers.

[Zalgiris 1410]

orrigionally posted by Denwad:

guns do have rifles, so do flamethrowers and rocket crews but they are abstracted, you can't control their fire

they fire at the greatest threat

orrigionally posted by Brent Pollock:

...always sounds like pistols, not rifles.

I think that was done in CM to stop them being unrealistically put into the front line if their heavy weapon was KOd.

They have pistols not rifles for sure, I agree that it always sounds like hand pistols fired in self defence by gun crews etc. I know that the Tac AI usually kicks in to make infantry types of unit fire at half their maximum range. Thereby HMGs at 500m, Infantry squads & their HQs at 250m except with Btln HQs & SMG only squds for which it is at about 125m etc.

Hand pistol range in CM is about 175m and therefore those pistol armed crews ought to be at least having the Tac AI consider targeting from about 87m at the most accordingly. However IME because they are primarily manning their gun or whatever (ammo handling etc) I think that this is reduced to 43m or so. I don't immediately recall witnessing a weapons crew engage enemy Infantry types beyond about 40 metres, but definately at around 30 metres+ IIRC.

[ October 15, 2005, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[JasonC]

As for why the shot killed your men, it was probably canister. Overmodeled and oversupplied to Russian 76mm. Most of the ammo so designated was actually shrapnel, about as effective as HE against men in the open and worse against men in cover.

[John_d]

Only one sure-fire way of getting rid of guns- stop what your doing and bring a HQ unit and a couple of mortars up. Even if you can't see the gun directly, if you can get the shells to land with a few metres of the gun, it is usually enough to suppress if it, if not take it out. Off board arty works too, but takes too long very often (especially in CMBB). The only other way i've seen is to attach bayonets and charge. Doesn't seem to work in CMBB all that well though, more of a CMBO tactic. I once had a knocked out mortar crew take out 2 guns singlehandedly like this before escaping back to my lines largely unscathed! Happy days... Not that I would recommend doing this unless you were desperate

[Other Means]

I've had squads like that kill guns in seconds. Don't let the fact that you've experienced a freak result affect your decision making in the future. You may never see that particular result again, although personally I'd keep them no closer than 30m.

[juan_gigante]

I had a bazooka team take out a 20mm AA gun once. I've got a screenshot of the zook's kill sheet in the AAR, but I (I confess!) don't really know how to post images here, so you'll just have to trust me.

[John_d]

Certainly, I always use mortars against guns if I can. For every time a full on charge at a AT gun works, there must be 10 times when it fails miserably. Even that time I was talking about with my mortar crew, the same gun had driven back a platoon of riflemen a few turns before whilst attemping to pin it. Just luck as to whether it works or not really.

Or cut a deal with the devil, you never know. That's what my mortar guys did, I reckon. After the 2 guns, they were going after a 3rd one, only to come face to face with a company of SS Panzergrenadiers. Then suddenly out of the blue comes an artillery strike, totally off target, and lands right in the middle of the Germans, giving my men enough time to leg it! :eek: Beautiful!

You just can't plan for something like that!

[Joachim]

Which cover for both units? Which weapons were left in your green squad? Which fanaticism level?

My guess is that the gun was in woods, trees with foxhole or even a trench. They probably had little exposure. Your exposure doesn't matter vs canister.

Did you have any SMG in your squad?

The crew most likely was fanatic.

Still I don't expect a gun to turn around under fire in real life - especially not with a cover bonus. But hey - it is just a model and it has some glitches. If you try to get rid of any glitch you might make it worse.

Gruß

Joachim

[John_d]

From what I remember (and this is going back a year or so) my team was veteran. Ran across open ground, but for some reason didn't get targetted by the gun. Took a couple of turns to knock the gun out, but didn't take any return fire. Dunno what was going on with that gun crew- must have been green or something. Second gun was positioned so that the team was able to get quite close before they got spotted, so just a short dash from there. Both guns were in foxholes. Probably just pure fluke. The whole battle was fairly weird tho. Lots of things like that happened. Got a halftrack carrying a battalion HQ taken out whilst driving along a road. The halftrack then continued down the road, through my lines, then the enemies and ended up deep behind enemy lines. Must have skidded a good 500m. Odd. Sometimes stuff like that happens in CM I guess

[Aco4bn187inf]

I for one would prefer to see gun crews in the game armed with smg's and rifles, and to fight as infantry if they lose their gun. Can you picture a gun crew in any serious assault, or at Stalingrad, or in an airborne unit, just say, "Well, our gun's knocked out. I guess we can go home now." Maybe put them at Low Ammo status.

Bidermann in his book "In Deadly Combat" writes of doing infantry-type tasks while his AT gun was not in use.

Incidentally, speaking of chance events, I once had a gun crew in CMAK reduced to just one man, and not abandoned. Only time I ever saw that happen.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by Aco4bn187inf:

I for one would prefer to see gun crews in the game armed with smg's and rifles, and to fight as infantry if they lose their gun.... Maybe put them at Low Ammo status.

Bidermann in his book "In Deadly Combat" writes of doing infantry-type tasks while his AT gun was not in use.

I second that, I've read at least one first person account of a German Heavy Machine Gun Platoon ordered to attack as normal Infantry riflemen, and get slaughtered in the process of returning to their MG positions. While this is not an example of an ATG crew doing the same I suggest the reader extrapolate from it thank you!