Panther variants

[Tux]

Hi all,is there anyone out there who'd be willing to type a brief description/ comparison of all the available Panther variants in game? I think I get a few of their differences, such as hull MGs and shot-trap removal, but I can't see the difference between some...

Thanks in advance for any info. :cool:

P.S. Steve, if you read this, don't worry; I haven't just received a platoon of Panthers in any of our games.

[stikkypixie]

Here's a good read. Sometimes the difference can be subtle I think, like engine difference or armor quality, etc...

[Soddball]

My "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW2" says (and I paraphrase):

First Panther: Panther D - 850 built Jan-Sep 43. Hull MG mounted in a 'flap port' rather than a ball mount.

Second Panther: Panther A - 2,000 built Aug 43-May 44.

Fixed problems with Panther D (including running gear, drive train, exhaust cooling). Replaced flap port MG with a ball mount MG . Pistol ports and ammo-loading hatch on turret deleted.

Third Panther: Panther G - 3,126 built Mar 44-April 45.

Better side armour (50mm/30deg instead of 40mm/40deg) and driver's vision plate removed from front plate, replaced with a periscope. A number of minor changes to improve reliability. From September 44, turrets shipped with a new gun mantlet which eliminated the shot trap.

Is this roughly what you were after?

(Edit: Stikkypixie must die. :mad: )

[JasonC]

I think CMBB game differences might be wanted instead.

CMBB divides Panthers into 6 types - in chronological order, D, D late, A early, A, G, and G late. The arrival dates for each type are July 43, August 43, Sept 43, Dec 43, Apr 44, and Sep 44 respectively.

The D model is the only one that has a smoke dispenser. It disappears on the D late, and that is the only in-game difference between those two. (Note that in reality, the D had serious drive train problems, "teething" engine, etc - none of that occurs in CM).

The A early has increased ground pressure from somewhat greater weight, 12.3 vs. 11.8 psi.

There isn't much to choose from in these three earliest types. They are generally better than those that come later. You can think of all three of them as "1943 model Panthers".

The A model (no "early") on the other hand starts to show the late war Panther pattern. It has the Nahv. close defense system, as do all later models. It loses the side skirts. And its armor quality is rated "occasional flaws in upper hull front". In practice that means Russian 122mm AP can kill them with upper front hull hits *sometimes*. (Brit 17 pdr and US 90mm are similar).

The G model (no "late") switches the upper hull side armor to 50mm at 30 degrees instead of 40mm at 40 degrees. The total protection is still similar, as the slope difference makes up most of the armor thickness gain. Ground pressure inches up to 12.5 psi but not a significant difference there. MG ammo drops to 192 from 204, again marginal.

The big difference is the armor quality of the glacis is now rated as "frequent flaws in upper hull front". In practice this means Russian 122mm AP will usually kill them on an upper front hull hit. This makes the G (no "late") the worst of the available types.

The last type, G late, eliminates the "shot trap" (created by the overhang of the mantlet - the mantlet was lowered and reinforced on the last production runs). This is pure gain and the only change from the previous G.

Note that the A model (no "early") remains available clear to the end of the war with its rarity never exceeding +20, and only exceeding +10 in April and May of 1945. There is therefore practically no compulsion to take the G models.

If you want to get rid of the shot trap and it is after late 1944, you can take the G late if you like. Marginally better against intermediate guns (US 76, Russian 85) but significantly worse against the bigger ones (Russian 122), compared to the A (no "early"), because of the inferior glacis plate.

Note that in reality, there were 3750 of the G models produced, against 600 D models and 1800 A models (all figured rounded), so the low rariety of the early types, especially so late, is not actually realistic. The chance of encountering an A model with better glacis in December of 1944 or early in 1945, was actually miniscule.

Much of this detail stems from the designer's diagnosis of the reason for the well reported success of the Russian long 122mm against the Panther glacis. They put it down to declining quality of the armor caused by materials shortages and a reduction in the alloying metals used in the plate. Before there are lots of Russian 122s running around (which means in practice before the spring of 1944), the subject simply isn't tested.

Their equations say the glacis should succeed. It didn't in reality. So they make the late war Panthers fail against it. But the earlier ones work against it. And then low rariety numbers for tanks actually made in smaller numbers a year earlier, let you take less vulnerable Panthers if you want them. (If rariety is off you can take a D etc).

The real reason the glacis fails to 122mm is probably not armor quality deterioration, though that might have been a contributing factor. It is probably instead that their equations - which strongly favor small cross section rounds (compared to larger caliber of the same energy I mean) - probably underweight the importance of thickness to diameter effects.

Basically, when the round hitting a plate is larger across than the plate is thick, slope is less effective than a simple cosine measure suggests, because the round does not burrow through the longer channel, but just shatters the plate as a whole. The Panther glacis is 80mm thick but very well sloped. Russian 122mm outmatches it in diameter to thickness by 1.5 to 1. The slope is enough to nearly double the effective thickness on ordinary cosine effects.

The reality is probably that angle benefits decline as shell diameter exceeds plate thickness by a straight factor of that T/D ratio.

The way to get realistic behavior from the game as it is, is simply to overuse the G model Panthers and not cherry pick the oldest available model, in later war fighting (certainly from mid 1944 on). If instead you want to strain its Panther modeling as much as possible to benefit yourself, just lean to the oldest Panther you can get for affordable rariety. (If you do have to take a late Panther, take the G late to get rid of the shot trap).

Perhaps more than you bargained for, but you asked.

[Tux]

That's excellent, all of you, thanks. That wasn't a jot more than I bargained for Jason, it's very very useful, thankyou.

Excellent; so now I understand that as well. I'm learning fast!

Lol, it might be tough to persuade myself to take Gs if earlier models are available though...

[David I]

Tux,

There are many great contributers to this forum, even the really old ones still monitor and pitch in from time to time.

DavidI

[Baron von Beergut]

At the end of the war the Germans also experimented with adding infra red. In SPWaW I think this is in the Panther Uhu, but I dont think it is modeled in CM games. I guess it doesnt matter as its affect would be useful in limited visibility.

[Tux]

Yeah, I've read a little about German IR research. It's not in the game. Iirc they were only just beginning production of prototype IR sights for mounting on small arms and on AFVs when the war ended weren't they? If that's the case it wouldn't be appropriate to have it appear in CM...

[Other Means]

For all your info needs:

http://cmbb.jemian.com/

[Sivodsi]

Bejeezus! I didn't even realize that Panther A came after D and always wondered why As are found in the late mid period. Duh!

Is there any reason for this, other than to flout convention for the sake of doing so?

Cheers

[MikeyD]

The default skins don't really show all the differences (changed engine deck, drivers hatchers, drive sprocket, driver visor, idler, etc.) At the risk of tooting my own horn my MikeyD Panther mods are as close as I could get to showing all the Panther type differences.

About D-to-A. One book I read suggested it was a deliberate attempt at disinformation. gotta take any armor book written in the early 70s with a grain of salt but that's what they said

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Not unlike the Tiger Ausf E (Tiger I) and Tiger Ausf B (Tiger II).

[Tux]

Would it not just be to do with when the variants' respective development was initiated? For example, development of the Konigstiger could have begun before that of the Tiger I Ausf E even though it didn't enter service until afterwards.

Regarding the Panther, perhaps the A configuration was how the Panther was initially intended to enter service, but delays in its development meant the D configuration reached the front line first? I honestly don't know, but it would provide some logic to the situation.

There's a good example of this to be found in WWII aviation : The Hawker Tempest Mk V with the Napier Sabre engine reached service a year or so ahead of the Mk II because of problems with the Mk II's Bristol Centaurus powerplant.

Alternatively there could be no proper reason for it at all. For example, marks of Spitfire were only numbered in a very loose, occasionally chronological order. Also, whilst I'm back on the topic of aircraft ('home turf' from my POV ), the Fw 190D-9 immediately followed the D-0. The designations D-1 to -8 were never used, and for no apparent reason whatsoever.

P.S. I've decked most of my Panthers out in your skins already, MikeyD. They are outstandingly well done. :cool:

[Earl Grey]

There's an explanation for the designation of the different types somewhere in my sources... just have to find it. I own way to many books about the Panther by now - and I don't own 'em all yet!

@MikeyD: You'll be surprised what I did to improve your outstanding mods even furhter. Just need a little more time... by the way: when are you going to mod again?

[Soddball]

Originally posted by David I:

Tux,

There are many great contributers to this forum, even the really old ones still monitor and pitch in from time to time.

DavidI

Hey! Less of the old!

[Earl Grey]

Well, checked everything I have and found - nothing. I have to admit I don't have the Panzer Tracts volumes right now...

Official agreement seems to be nobody knows anything - it MIGHT be the versions A, B and C were initially reserved for different production models that were never produced. I remember reading somewhere else that maybe the plans got disordered, though I highly doubt that theory.

So in the end the theory of confusing the enemy is as likely as everything else. My guess is there WAS a system, but what the actual letters stand for, I have no clue about...

[ June 18, 2007, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

[The_Enigma]

The A model (no "early") on the other hand starts to show the late war Panther pattern. It has the Nahv. close defense system, as do all later models. It loses the side skirts. And its armor quality is rated "occasional flaws in upper hull front". In practice that means Russian 122mm AP can kill them with upper front hull hits *sometimes*. (Brit 17 pdr and US 90mm are similar).

I think My Panthers would disagree with that ... too many times have they went up in flames from a 85mm round which has punched stright on through its uper turret

If you play that Message from Geotz, you end up wiping out a bunch of Panzer Gs with with 85mm guns, sides kills, front kills, hail fire kills etc

[Tux]

Yeah, in a recent pbem against a friend he was surprised by the effectiveness of my T-34/85s against his Panthers in a frontal duel. I've had several Panthers 'brew up' as a result of 85mm rounds penetrating the front turret. I don't think I've ever had an 85mm shot punch through a Panther's glacis though, which is what I think JasonC was referring to.

[The_Enigma]

Glacis, thats the slopey bit on the hull ja?

Can't remember to be honest. What i can remember is an unhealthy number of my panthers with flaming turrets because yet another round slapped throuh it like a hot knife in butter

[Earl Grey]

The glacis plate is just the frontal armor.

By the way, the T-34 in 'Message from Goetz' have a disproportionate amount of APCR rounds - some tanks even as much as 7. Those punch through a Panther's armor like butter and engagement ranges in that scenario are well under 500m (at least when I played it) - if you're not constantly moving backwards.

[The_Enigma]

Originally posted by Earl Grey:

The glacis plate is just the frontal armor.

By the way, the T-34 in 'Message from Goetz' have a disproportionate amount of APCR rounds - some tanks even as much as 7. Those punch through a Panther's armor like butter and engagement ranges in that scenario are well under 500m (at least when I played it) - if you're not constantly moving backwards.

You should have seen the tank graveyard before i punched through the German tanks ...

[Bigduke6]

Originally posted by Earl Grey:

The glacis plate is just the frontal armor.

By the way, the T-34 in 'Message from Goetz' have a disproportionate amount of APCR rounds - some tanks even as much as 7. Those punch through a Panther's armor like butter and engagement ranges in that scenario are well under 500m (at least when I played it) - if you're not constantly moving backwards.

Why is 7 sub-caliber rounds disproportionate?

The basic load of sub-caliber for T-34/85 was 5 rounds. Extra issue if possible of 1 - 3 prior to expected combat against panzers was SOP, and it is logical that experienced crews would horde sub-caliber ammo above and beyond the basic load.

What I think is really disproportionate is a T-34/85 company in 1945 with less than two dozen APCR collectively, and several T-34/85s with no APCR at all. That's pretty much standard for CMBB, I doubt very often in the real deal.

That said, the main reason T-34/85 is effective in the Message from Goetz scenario is that the Soviet can get good gun density, and typically Panthers get tagged because several T-34s are firing on them at once.

[Earl Grey]

@BigDuke: Disproportionate in the amount of APCR firing guns you have to go against. That's what I meant. I still have to get used to it...

@the_enigma: I killed a lot of T-34's as well, but in the end, it just wasn't enough. Number of guns is in favor of the Soviets, it's just the T-34's armor that isn't as good as the Panther's.

[Bigduke6]

EG,

Fair comment, hope I didn't seem too snippish.

[Earl Grey]

Nope, not at all. You see, I'm not that familiar with Soviet doctrine (if at all), that's why I fight on the German side of the Lauban cmapaign!