Jack Carr Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Is it me or is this thing nigh undefeatable. Put one of these babies on a hill with some open terrain in front of it and watch the black smoking hulks appear. Unless it gets hit by a 122, frontally its hard to beat. Your only hope as a Russian player is to damage the gun or immobilize it. If CM is accurate in its portrayal of this vehicle why didn't the Germans produce these things like crazy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Try: a) attacking with one setting on a hill on its own, so you don't get the advantage of borg spotting c) defending against lots of Russian tanks d) fighting in close terrain e) fighting a controlled withdrawal with one. It's good at one particular thing but a bit out its depth in others, which is why turreted tanks are still useful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Because they couldn't just pull more Panther hulls out of Göring's ass, even if the size of the latter would have permitted doing so. Producing tanks (Panthers) was considered to be more important than producing tank destroyers, but less than 5000 Panthers were made since 1943 (and around 400 Jagdpanthers in 1944-45). Meanwhile a combined total of 80,000 Shermans and T-34's had been produced during the war. In other words, Germany wasn't a major league player when it came to tank production. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Europa Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 It's very sporty looking though... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 The Germans should have dropped the KingTiger program and put the resources into Panther/Jagdpanther. Perhaps another 1000 Panther and 500 Jagdpanther could have been made. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Europa Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 What wouldn't that have done to the rarity values of those in late war cm battles? Would never be a fair QB after that. Nah the kingtiger rocks. Soon I'll hear you advocating only pz IV production also 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 I think in 44 they should scaled back Panzer IV and made jagdpanzerIV. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 In his memoirs Hans Von Luck makes mention of having replacement tanks, but not having the crews for them, and having to train men on the spot. Was Germany in a position in the late war to adequately train sufficient crew for increased production? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Thats another reason to concentrate on just a couple of types. Its easier to train crews. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Allied pilots always prefer their Jagdpanthers sitting on a hill... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 So do allied smoke barrages... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Originally posted by Richie: Allied pilots always prefer their Jagdpanthers sitting on a hill... Allied pilots prefer ANY AFV sitting on a hill. Good Hunting. Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Carr Posted August 11, 2004 Author Share Posted August 11, 2004 Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. 1250 point quick battle in CMAK. I take one jagdpanther, that's it. The only advantage I gave the tank destroyer was high experience, it turned out to be "Crack". I give the American's +50% armored and let the computer pick the forces. Most of their forces are regular or better. They end up with 10 destroyed tanks and tank destroyers and 150 infantry casualties. The jagdpanther was eventually knocked out by an anti-tank team with a bazooka. The game bestowed a major victory to the jagdpanther based upon the number of casualties inflicted vs taken. The number of rounds that bounced off the front of this thing was amazing. The terrain was dry and the sky was clear. Small hills and moderate foliage/trees. I simply found a hill that would give the tank destroyer a good overall view of anything approaching and let the carnage begin. Mind you, I'm not bragging about my playing ability because quite frankly, I'm not that good at CM. But this jagdpanther, if it remains mobile and undamaged, can open up a serious can of whoop ass on an opponent advancing in the open. Thanks for the replies, and all of the facts presented. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 There is a story of 3 Jagdpanthers wasting a Sherman company from ambush. IIRC somewhere on the edge of a forest. The Jagdpanthers break cover to reposition, then the follow up company arrives. Strength and weakness. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 The terrain was dry and the sky was clear. Small hills and moderate foliage/trees. I simply found a hill that would give the tank destroyer a good overall view of anything approaching and let the carnage begin.Yes, it's good, but you'd have been hard pressed to tilt the balance any more in its favour with the conditions. In addition, you've got the AI's not-very-good-at-attacking flaw. A competant opponent could have set armour at wide angles, so if you turn to engage one group, the other would be presented with a side shot. The Jagdpanther is very good at what it does, but it's failing is that it doesn't do anything else very well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5353/jagdp.htm This link gives the Jagdpanther orders. Its very similar to US TD policy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Originally posted by Jack Carr: Is it me or is this thing nigh undefeatable. Put one of these babies on a hill with some open terrain in front of it and watch the black smoking hulks appear. Unless it gets hit by a 122, frontally its hard to beat. Your only hope as a Russian player is to damage the gun or immobilize it. If CM is accurate in its portrayal of this vehicle why didn't the Germans produce these things like crazy? IMO it's the best TD of WW2, having not just a great gun & armor but also great mobility. Germans tried to produce them like crazy, but couldn't. single Jagdpanthers are easy to destroy though, because they have those horribly slow turning rates. just flank it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Panther chassis had the ability to counter rotate tracks and this vehicles turning rate (and precision) would be better than most tanks. The drivers sight is at the same height as the main gun and MG. He could therefore find hull down positions nicely. It is much more useful than a KingTiger or a JagdTiger. I think the 44/45 Panzer division should have had a Battalion of Panthers (45 vehicles), battalion of Panzer IV/JagdpanzerIV (37 vehicles) and a company of JagdPanther (14 vehicles). The Panzer IV battalion would have one Panzer IV company (14 vehicles..a light tank company) and the other two companies (10 each) would be Jagdpanzer IV. The Panzer IV would basically serve as scouting for the other two jagdpanzer companies. The jagdPanther company acts as a fast antitank reaction force for the whole division. The Panther battalion is the main offensive striking force and the Panzer IV/jagdpanzer battalion is the initial blocking defensive force. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Any of you boys playing the ROW finals? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FM Paul Heinrik Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 You think the jagdpather is good....try the jagdtiger. I've never seen that sucker destroyed. It will usually get immobilized or run out of ammo, only after it destroys every moving vehicle on the map. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Yeah JagdTiger are very devastating 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 j@gt1g3r's kick @$$!!!11 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 IRL they were not thought of so highly. Both Carius (TigerI) and Earnst (Hornet) disliked moving to this vehicle. The Tiger II was already overstraining its driveline. To have a vehicle that relied on rotating itself (this is not a good thing for tracks) and further increasing on the weight of the TigerII was a waste. I don't think that the 12.8cm gun was really needed and to just field 79 of them was silly. The game should model this vehicle as getting bogged often. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Originally posted by FM Paul Heinrik: You think the jagdpather is good....try the jagdtiger. I've never seen that sucker destroyed. It will usually get immobilized or run out of ammo, only after it destroys every moving vehicle on the map. The JT is not invincible. You need to try HSG Dinosaurs Eat the Eggs. It is at the SD. (shameless plug) The briefing explains the scenario name. This scenario covers the only documented case of the JT's fighting in Russia. They are tough but they can be killed. Ask my last PBEM partner... Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Originally posted by Mr. Tittles: IRL they were not thought of so highly. Both Carius (TigerI) and Earnst (Hornet) disliked moving to this vehicle. The Tiger II was already overstraining its driveline. To have a vehicle that relied on rotating itself (this is not a good thing for tracks) and further increasing on the weight of the TigerII was a waste. I don't think that the 12.8cm gun was really needed and to just field 79 of them was silly. The game should model this vehicle as getting bogged often. They were thought pretty highly of AFTER the guys had been in them for awhile. I think it was never the German intention to only make 79 of them. I believe they thought they had time to make more of them. And as far as saying that the next larger gun size wasn't needed you could go all the way back to 1939 and the 20mm of the PzII and start their. Why a 37mm, or 50mm, or 75mm? When you are in an arms and amrour race you don't have the luxury of not upping the ante. IMHO. Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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