Pure armor vs German heavies

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Hi there,

I'm experimenting as the Soviets in a pure armor match. I wondering if others have some suggestions about equipment or tactics to use against German heavy tanks, such as the Tiger or King Tiger. I've had some success with the IS3s, but those feel so gamey given the ridiculous rarity of these beasts. What Soviet tanks are effective in a pure armor game against the German heavies? If you were going into a blind pure armor game armed for bear, what would you pack?

Thanks,

Dr. Rosenrosen

[SgtMuhammed]

Take T34/85's, lots of them, and back them up with a platoon of SU85s or 100's whichever is available. Do not get suckered into a long range fight even with the really big boys because you will lose. Use the 34s speed to get on the flanks and in the rear of the big cats. Once they are distracted you can pop up with your SUs to provide ranged fire and provide a double tactical crisis for the Germans.

[mike the wino2]

Hey stGOody does the Stuart Swarm tactic work in CMBB as it did in CMBO? I know that 3 of the little buggers can take Sturmtiger out but haven't tried it against any other tanks.

[arkai88]

T-34/85's are your best bet, just pray that you've got some good terrain to hide in and that when you do finally pop up on the Tigers' flank that your t34 driver doesn't ram it into reverse before the gunner gets a shot off.

[SgtMuhammed]

Well I wouldn't recomend it with a bunch of Stuarts but the principle is the same. You have to use the Russian tanks the way the Russians used them themselves. Close quickly and concentrate on the sides and rear. For the big cats, nothing short of an 85 will give you assured kills.

[Grisha]

One of the real life tricks the Soviets used to draw out identified German armor required a few T-34s and an SU or two. The T-34s were set up for a flanking ambush in terrain/defilade. The SU/s would go ahead, and draw the fire of the panzers - at least enough to allow them to realize they were SUs and not tanks. The panzers would press forward in hopes of catching the SU/s at a disadvantage, and unknowingly enter the ambush zone of the T-34s.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by arkai88:

T-34/85's are your best bet, just pray that you've got some good terrain to hide in and that when you do finally pop up on the Tigers' flank that your T-34 driver doesn't ram it into reverse before the gunner gets a shot off.

The best way to avoid this is the shoot and scoot command or have other tanks do the same to draw the Tiger's attention away from the T-34 sneaking up on it.

As everyone else says, T-34/85 is the way to go. Give it a good crew and Tungston rounds and it will clean up almost anything. In the early years the T-34/57 will do in a pinch, but the rarity makes it uber expensive.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the IS-2 yet. Although the 122mm main gun has a slower firing rate, it has better penetration than the 100mm gun at the 500m to 1000m range. I've also seen the IS-2 survive multiple turret hits from the shorter Barrel 88 on the Tiger I. Put it a hull down position and it will give the Germans a real headache.

Then there's the ISU-152. the HE rounds from the 152mm gun will do a pretty good job of mangling the Main gun and tracks on a King Tiger...provided they get the jump on the KT and are able to fire first.

One other thing. Try to keep the engagement range at 1000m or less. Anything over that and the better German optics will let them tear you apart. Remember, nothing makes one feel better than killing a Panther with a T-70 at close range.

[Grisha]

One other thing. Try to keep the engagement range at 1000m or less. Anything over that and the better German optics will let them tear you apart. Remember, nothing makes one feel better than killing a Panther with a T-70 at close range.

Either that, or Soviet forces should conduct hunts at dawn/dusk where low light levels reduce German optic capabilities.

[CombinedArms]

I would tend to go with the T-34/85 + IS-2 combo, with lots of T-34s and a few IS-2s. The IS-2s can kill KTs from the front (though they can't match the KT for accuracy or probably rate of fire). Keep the IS-2s popping up and down with shoot and scoot--or, better yet, place them in a position where their firelanes, hulldown, control access to the VLs (KTs must cross this sector to reach the VLs). This provides the serious frontal threat. Then, as the KTs move toward the VLs, nail them from the flanks with the T-34s.

This assumes either an ME or a defensive role for the Russian tanks. In an ME, I usually like to grab the VLs and hold, but against KTs, I think I'd suggest setting up the VLs as a kill sack zone. Attacking against KTs, use terrain to hide your movement and spread across the whole map, so that you can get a flanking position on the KTs somewhere--you're going to outnumber the Germans and they can't defend everywhere. On a flat, open map, though, it will be hard to find a good tactic too attack vs. KTs. That's where they rule.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Thanks for the great advice!

AAR:

I tried a 1250 pt meeting engagement as the Soviets. Gave the Germans 4 regular Tigers, a Panzer IV/70 and a King Tiger. I got 6 veteran T34/85s and 2 regular IS2s.

I zipped under cover to the flags with my 6 T34s and left the IS2s in reserve. I was attempting to stay under cover with my T34s to wait out the Tigers, but they found me. The ensuing exchange cost them one Tiger and cost me five T34s (ouch). With my remaining T34, I zipped around the right flank and engaged them from the side and rear as I move my IS2s into a more threatening position. From the flank position, the T34 killed the Panzer and one more Tiger. He also routed the King Tiger with a couple side penetrations.

Meanwhile one of the IS2s duked it out with a third Tiger at about 400m. The IS2 was routed briefly (front penetration, one casualty), but the Tiger was knocked out. The final Tiger made a dash for the flag. He and my unrouted IS2 played a 2 minute long game of "hunt in the village" at about 40m while I brought my flanking T34 into position from the rear at 200m. Finally the IS2 and the T34 fired simultaneously, at the side and rear respectively. The Tiger went up in flames and victory was mine.

You guys are great! I'm ready to challenge my PBEM buddy now!

Thanks again,

Dr. Rosenrosen

[ February 23, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Rosenrosen ]

[coe]

any German armour that is good in the closer

than 1000 m zone (I assume this means faster

turret rotation?)

C.

[Auggy]

Panzer IV's aren't too bad. Not overkill but they can get the job done.

[Nippy]

I zipped under cover to the flags with my 6 T34s and left the IS2s in reserve.

I usually send in the IS-2s first. I let the "play wack a mole" (read: shoot and scoot) with the German tanks while the T-34s race around the flanks.

One thing I forgot to mention. Try playing a 1000 to 1500 QB meeting engagment on a huge map with at least a few trees and hills. With that size you can really get a feel for the T-34s speed advantage over the German Tigers

[coe]

so how'd the germans defeat these type of

tactics...time after time after time?

C.

[PiggDogg]

Coe,

Treat the uber Cats like unter Cats. That is, protect their flanks with terrain, use keyhole firelanes, and plan for first shots.

Also, in addition to the uber Cats' flanks being protected by terrain, cover the flanks of the uber Cats with AT guns, PzIVs, Marders, PzIV/70s, and/or anything that can kill T34s at range. Keep these unter Cats hidden. Wait for the T34s to rush forward and expose themselves. Then ambush the crappe out of the T34s, preferably on their flanks.

After the exposed T34s have been controlled, the uber Cats can be a bit more brave. However, remember: "treat uber Cats like unter Cats".

Cheers, Richard

[Sublime]

Lol good suggestions all - I especially liked your quote Piggdogg - the Uber cats - Unter cats thing.. I've never thought of it in those terms, but nothing could be truer! If you play with your Tigers, Panthers, and KT's when you know your up against stuff that can kill them carefully, almost like they were just PzIV's you'll do a lot better! Just pretend they get killed really easily, but can kill well. If you look at it from that mindset and are careful, chances are noone will kill them. Remember to watch those flanks, and its usually good to hide them behind cover until you establish where the enemy armor is...

[Sardaukar]

Soviets have this wonderful beast indeed called T-34/85 (get 1944 late with fast turret). IS-2 tends to fire too slowly and it's eaten alive by optics and rate of fire from German tanks...even Pz IVs/Stug IIIGs do that to IS-2. Problem for Soviets is that nothing they have is reliably "shotproof" from long range like King Tiger or Ferdinand/Elephant. And if you are in late 1942-summer 1943 against Tiger Is, forget those T-34s... Valentine IX is the only one with even remoted chance to punch through that big cat's armour...and it's even slower than Tiger

Germans can have easy time while Tiger I reigns (before Soviet 85 mm). Those 57 mm guns from T-34/57 and Valentine IX can be nasty sometimes.

King Tiger and Ferdinand are better treated as semi-mobile pillboxes But if they are protected by Pz IV/70s (nasty), Hetzers, Pz IV Hs (don't buy J, it has slow turret), Stug IV/IIIGs and so, you can be quite confident against Soviet heavies and medioums equally. 75L48 is typically enough to hammer Soviet tanks "dizzy" even from distance.

Cheers,

M.S.

[El Savior]

Just couple of days ago I played pure armor (5000 points in big city!) against human German. I buyed one platoon of SU-122 and IS-2 and four platoon of T-34/85. SU's get their ass kicked in few turns by King Tiger. T-34 is useless against King Tiger if you're planning duel, IS-2 optics are too bad ja King Tiger will also eat it alive. Still T-34 is you're best change! Hit the throttle, and surround your enemy. 3-4 T-34 per King Tiger and über German tank is history. In my game, I knocked out 3 King Tiger (all hits to rear armor), 4 panthers and one Sturmtiger. My losses were one IS-2, ALL SU's and four T-34/85. I won 90%. One more thing, try to sneak VERY close, German optics are superior... :eek:

[ February 24, 2003, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: El Savior ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by coe:

so how'd the germans defeat these type of

tactics...time after time after time?

C.

They did not - remember who won the war?

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by coe:

so how'd the germans defeat these type of

tactics...?

C.

Assuming we don't have a complete flat terrain (and there's no LOS from one flank to the other), where Germans can make use of the excellent long-range capabilities of their weapons, and they're expecting overwhelming russian forces, i prefer the tactics of selective fire:

attacking single tanks out of hordes from different sides, instead of a bloody head-to-head shootout.

Like always, the two golden rules are guilty:

1st: never let a tank operate alone (if that happens during the battle, that's another topic, but never plan to use one tank alone, except it is commanded by a Ritterkreuzträger ).

2nd: what's true for PAK's line of fire works well for tanks, too: diagonal fire of tank-duos whenever possible.

A possible plan could be:

one cat (Panther, Tiger) to each side and

groups of 2 PZIVs each, to the flanks as support fire for the cats or, if too heavy enemy firepower appears, as an immediate support for the cats with shoot&scoot.

The best cat(s) with best commander(s) in the centre and behind the flank positions (but not too far behind, 'cause that would reduce the angle for the enemy too much.

They also need excellent possibility to hide and should have a good and wide LOS (much better than on the flanks).

If your points allow that, your position can be greatly strengthened by adding an additional defensive position to the centre in almost one line with the flank positions and in front of the centre position with the good tank-commanders.

If terrain allows, don't fear about using houses in the centre (only slightly behind the flanks) for cover for two tanks (each covering the other's side while both are hiding behind a house).

If they even can retreat into better cover, the better.

These tanks in the centre stay hidden as long as possible and are covering the sides of the maps, in case if a tank on the side can make it through the flank and centre fire - they are your fire brigade and an excellent protection against advancing infantry on the sides; usually PzIVs are enough for that).

If necessary the two tanks behind the house can easily attack even centre forces by moving only a few meters.

For their survive and keeping this position it's essentially, that the flank positions keep intact.

Before losing a flank, forget the centre.

******* ENEMYSIDE *******

flankL___house?___flankR

________\2 tanks/_______

___________hill_________

____Elite heavies, SPW__

First, let SPW in the centre recon for the tanks.

Let the enemy come close enough, to have LOS from at least two angles - keep hidden.

Usually the fire is opened way to early. Means that the first enemy tank can become knocked out, but the others usually stay or reverse back into cover with hull-down possibilities.

Let them come closer (~500-450m) and wait mayb for a whole fat platoon of T34/85s to appear.

If fully hiding on the good positions on the flanks is not really possible and hull-down is the maximum, try to get the first shot and hide afterwards. Don't stay in LOS!

You don't know what else the enemy will bring up next.

When he's close enough let the game of the rabbit and the two hedgehogs begin...

One position (either centre-hill or a flank) attracts fire with shoot&scoot, while the other one gets ready to penetrate the turret-sides...

The smaller the angles for the enemy, the more important the timing.

Another positive effect: the closer the enemy comes, the wider his angles.

If possible, choose the hide-positions of the tanks, accordingly to be able to have LOS to the suspected advance routes torwards the other positions, while staying hidden (i.e. flankL hidden has LOS to the centre "house" with the two PzIVs or hidden tanks behind centre-"hill" have minimum LOS to the flanks).

If one enemy tank can break through, you're able to knock it out with side shots, while staying hidden from the main forces (like the tanks in the centre behind the "house").

If the enemy tries to push forward on the flanks with heavy forces, the SPW and center tanks play the role of attracting fire from them - afterwards the great PzIVs and cat on the flanks can show what they can.

For success it's necessary to be able to attract enemy fire from the flanks torwards the centre.

If the enemy keeps wisely a few beasts in the rear to keep the heighs free of your (centre) cats, it's most important to neutralize them first (knock out or withdraw), otherwise your centre can't support the flanks.

Therefore the best tanks and commanders in the centre.

Usually it's quite easy to take the rear-protection out, because these tanks usually stay on their positions for keeping the advance free from threats on the heighs.

Shoot&scoot with very good Tiger or Panther commanders will make the enemy beasts - in the worst case - hide quickly.

In most cases it's enough to get them to hide,

because all you need are a few seconds for your "centre-hill" tanks to be able to attack the advancing enemy flank forces.

If you can take his rear beasts out, even better, but that's not really necessary.

If his flank-forces become shot to pieces, the beasts will have to advance, too.

In case that the enmy chooses a massive centre attack, this tactic works even better.

What the massive centre attack brings for concentrated firepower, is (by far) lost due to the threat from three sides (front and both sides).

The big benefit of this tactics is, that it can be used on a lot of terrain types and gives excellent possibilities for extremely short, easily to manage but massive counter strikes.

One real negative aspect is, that if the enemy concentrates all forces on one side, he will be able to break through quite easily, maybe even knock out the elite centre-tanks and the terrain can forbid moving the own forces on the wrong flank torwards the centre.

This tactics is also critical for breakthroughs.

And the third negative aspect is (but that's true for all tactics with extremely thin frontiers), that it's very hard to estimate, which position will really need the reinforcements and once the peel breaks, it's almost impossible to stabalize the situation and retreat is the only way out.

But as long as this peel holds, it's a real hard nut (and allows to follow Guderian's rule of "Klotzen statt kleckern" to it's extreme).

[ February 24, 2003, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[JasonC]

The problem with flanking attacks against heavy armor is that your tanks cower the instant they get LOS. I've seen in dozens of times, and it is frustrating to the point of being ridiculous.

I've had T-34s with tungsten pounce on Tigers at 34m range from within 15 degrees of the absolute rear of the Tiger (coming around woods), his turret forward and mine slewed directly at him, with hunt orders and a vehicle covered arc. Do they shoot it in the ass? They run away. The instant they get LOS, the move changes to "reverse", and they don't shoot while reversing.

I've had SU-85s keyholed on the exact spot a Tiger would appear at 200m range, waiting for it several minutes, and it dutifully appears. The SU's kill rating is "OK" by the LOS tool - although actually it is worse than that due to "reinforced turret front" quality rating, and "shell broke up" shatter results. Which incidentally are also pretty ridiculous. I've bounced more 85s at under 300m than you can imagine. But does the SU even fire, in the perfect keyhole ambush above? It reverses the instant it gets LOS.

It really is just absurd. Meanwhile, the Tigers will shoot at and kill you even while panicking. I've had Valentine IXs accumulate multiple partial penetrations that sent a Tiger into panic, shock, -1 crew. And it still just turns the turret and blows away the nearest Valentine.

[coe]

interesting...can you imagine a tiger or a panther with a fast turret?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

What's "Klotzen statt kleckern"?

[reinald@berlin.com]

klotzen = amass; use great numbers

kleckern = unwisely distribute; use willy-nilly ...

"Klotzen statt kleckern!" is a proverb coined by Guderian that means one should use concentration of overwhelming force instead of distributing one's power along the whole line. Very much true for armored combat.

[ February 24, 2003, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: reinald@berlin.com ]

[PJungnitsch]

Sounds similar to another famous quote of his: "Don't feel with the fingers, hit with the fist!"