Infantry too tough?

[Raziaar]

I know that infantry that are dug in are supposed to be tough, though I still think bombarding a single infantry foxhole with 15 tanks and still not killing it in 3 rounds is way too tough.

Though that's not my point.

I have the updated demo, and I enjoy it, but this is one thing that bugs me, and makes me not want to buy the game.

It seems that infantry are like 100 times tougher to kill than tanks, even using tanks against the infantry. Using machine guns or main gun, infantry running in open ground won't die in the demo when I attack them with machine guns or with main guns, using veteran tanks, and lots of them.

It's that one battle where you can be the german with nothing but tanks advancing on the russian foothold.

One last thing, on that very same map. It seems the computer has a much easier time destroying objects than me. No matter how I set up my forces as the russians in the very same map, I can barely knock out a single german tank before all my forces are wiped out.

When I played the germans, the russians took out a little over half of my total forces in my final push, i got a minor victory.

Are these things changed in the full version, or is AI just super godlike like in all games, and infantry way tough to kill even when uncovered?

Sorry for the rant, but I gotta know, before I buy this game. Speaking of buying, why is it only sold on the makers website? Not popular enough? How many people play on average?

[Raziaar]

Double post, sorry. I didn't see the first one when my web browser messed up on me.

[ng cavscout]

Raziaar, I haven't noticed a unusual tendency for infantry to be invincible. Can you describe the situation you are referring to a bit more? ie, What is the tactical situation, what are you doing, what kind of orders are you giving, etc.

[Raziaar]

Well, i'm on the demo Citadel map. I am playing as the German's. I advance with my tanks, nicely enough, losing a few along the way. After I pound through most of the Anti Tank guns, there are a few infantry crews, such as from a destroyed enemy tank, that gets isolated out in the open on the road. He's being routed, or at least falling back, and running away. I have about 5 tanks targetting him, 1 with MG, 2 with main gun, 3 with MG, 4 with main gun, etc.

yet, during the whole sixty seconds of that round, all the shells and bullets hit near or on the infantry, yet the infantry is still running. I clicked on him, and he still has the same number of troops that he has when i first started to fire at him.

Does that help, if not, I dunno how I can clarify it any more.

Edit: Well, as for orders, all I did was push T for target and clicked on the infantry. As for tactics, there wasn't any needed, he was fleeing, I was trying to mow him down, with almost half a dozen tanks. They failed for 3 rounds before he finally died.

[ July 10, 2003, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Raziaar ]

[Pzman]

Infantry may seem hard to defeat... for a new player because you only see three men and think... why aren't they dead? There are really 8-13 guys in some squads, thus it takes time to "kill" them all. Most people argree that the demo isn't the greatest. Although CMBOs graphics are not as good, the scenarios in its Demo are more fun for new people to play, IMO. Check out the FAQ thread on the forum and a lot more of your questions will be answered. As for numbers of players, it keeps going up. CMBO is for sale in Stores in North America and Europe, not just through this site; CMBB will be in stores sometime in the future.

[ July 10, 2003, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

[ng cavscout]

As to your other questions, I believe that there will be a retail version released soon, like they did with "beyond overlord".

There are quite a few people who play this game, just try the opponent finder forums to find someone to play with. Or use the AI as an opponent for a while to get used to the game.

I have been playing wargames since the early 1980's. The Combat Mission games brought me back to computer gaming. It is the best incarnation of tactical level WW2 combat I have seen. It compares to the tabletop game, Advanced Squad Leader.

Don't get frustrated if it takes a while to get the hang of it, if you are willing to invest some time, I think you will find the Combat Mission games a worthy investment. I got both for 65.00$. I am playing them still, long after games such as "Janes Fleet Combat", "Battlefield 1942", "Command and Conquer", and even Civilization III are consigned to the back of the bottom drawer of my filing cabinet. And each of those cost in the 40-50 dollar range when I bought them.

There you go, my 37 cents worth.

[ng cavscout]

I am unfamiliar with the scenario you refer to, sorry, someone else will have to help you with that.

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Raziaar:

Well, i'm on the demo Citadel map.

Its an interesting battle, winable by ether side, it just takes time to get to know the strength and weakness of your units, if you aren't too familar with WWII weapons that is. As the Russians don't use the KVs in a head on fight with the German Tanks 99% of the time you will lose. Flank the Germans armor when they move down into the valley... if you can. Keep your AT guns hidden till the Panzers are past them then take flanking shots.

[86smopuim]

Originally posted by Panzerman:

Infantry may seem hard to defeat... for a new player because you only see three men and think... why aren't they dead? There are really 8-13 guys

U know what.. this is what I thought of CMBO.

It is actually an ?optical? illusion in the game due to lack of proper intel.

I soon learned my vision was false.

Buy the game, U will learn properly used tanks are an unholy terror to infantry.

[Pzman]

Its not so much an illusion; it a graphical repersentation, of the 8-13 guys. There are a good number of abstractions in CM so for new players these may cause confusion.

[Raziaar]

One thing I noticed too, is that if i'm waiting on the defensive, things are agonizingly slow to wait for the advance of opposing armies. In that one map, it took the germans 20 turns to even SHOW UP on my map! That took a LOONG time, even fast forwarding through it every time.

I realize this game is about strategy, and thats fine. I know the computer has to think, but does the full version take so long for the individual turns to go into effect? It's actually not that bad invididually, but hwen you are forced to wait 20 turns, that can be painful.

One last question, if you will. I am in the united states, Texas to be exact. I notice United states is in the 'other' section of shipping the game. How long will it take me to ship the game over to me? can I expect overnight or two day delivery like most other game companies, or longer? <chuckles>

[Pzman]

As far as I know in the US its two or three days most of the time. The AI in the game does have trouble advancing at times, thats why many people like to play other people via. TCP/IP or PBEM. The Enemy is on the map the entire time, you just don't see them becaue of the Fog of War (FOW). Having designed a good number of battles (not on the BFC team so none on game CD) as well tested and played hundreds of battles over the last three, almost four years, I can tell you that its worth getting. The demo battle you are talking about is slow because of the size of the map. Most battles are on smaller maps, or have larger forces which causes the two sides to start fighting sooner.

[ July 10, 2003, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

[MAUS_TD]

Hello Raziaar,

i've now the game for nearly a year and i play it almost every day. This is because there are so many different battles. The tac IA is not good in advancing but if you give them more men and set the settings higher +3 then they can attack good.I play mostly against the cpu.Now i am learning how to use my forces properly because of the forum (it's the best i have read in a while).Also i like this game because everyone can make his own scenario than post it and everybody can play it.Also you can change any scenario you want so you can add troops or delete them, change there status from regular to crack or elite. You see this game has so many things it is certainly worth your bucks

[Jarmo]

One thing that doesn't seem to be mentioned.

The troops AI controls have exactly the same rules and behaviour

as the troops you control. Many games make things easier for AI

by cheating or bending the rules. Not CM, your T-34 is exactly as

capable as AI T-34. Your troops spot as easily, die as hard.

The reason the AI troops seem as capable as they do, is because

the AI is actually pretty strong opponent. For a beginner anyway...

[Screeny]

Hwey Raziaar;

i don't know whether you are referring to CMBO or CMBB but I guess the answer you are looking for is simple:

If you want a game like Command and conquer where you buy a F%%^K load of units and win pure by quantity yet in a rather realistic WW2 and 3d enviroment this is NOT your game to buy.

If you want a game that 100% transfers you to WW2 and that is a 100% accurate simulation of WW2 balltelfield on a tactical level I suggest you wait untill science invents the Start Trek Enterprice's "Holodec"

If however you want a game that makes use of a true 3d enviroment and with full detailled use of ALL aspect of different kind of equipment of WW2 (and NOT uses it as a nice nifty marketing/sales tool; NOW with 500 different tanks!!), this is your game. Buy it , start playing against the AI to get a feeling for the game and to get to know all the units and equipment.Read this forum for all the good adivce, tips and tricks, get yourself a ADSL line and then play agaisnt humans..and that is where the real fun starts!!!Trust me the first 2 weeks might be frustrating as you will notice that having 4 big tanks and storming them forward will not give you victory butonce you get teh hang of it is really addictive, I'm playing now for 1 1/2 year and I still learn knew things. And playing TCP/IP is a real good learner: For example I played a lot agaisnt a guy a lot and he learned me a lot by use of the "in-game chat fuction" (THX LONDONER!!). He was pretty open and frank about why he was doing soem manouvres and told me what I was doing wrong. You will notice there are many players willing to play you and not only use you as an easy win. Most of the guys here love to talk about the game more as actually playing it (But I guess that you figured out allready yourself by reading this post )

[HeinzBaby]

Raziaar, reading your posts, is sounds like you're pretty ticked off...

I'm not trying to be pendantic so bare with me.

Observation of enemy units has various levels of targeting feedback [Fog Of War]. The closer the contact the better all depending of terain, movement, and distance all interplay. From what you are describing, it sounds like the Infantry are someway off already broken/panicked/routed, taking off to the rear. If you get close enough with armour [1-200 mtrs] but not too close for fear of molatov's etc, they'll die real fast or surrender after exhaustion. And if those surrendering Infantry have been giving you a LOT of grief, just area fire em'...mmm..shouldn't of said that, politically Incorrect.

Waitng in ambush can be a real nail biter but pays handsome dividends if done well with good fire discipline, and I love the tension. I played the Demo, and couldn't wait to get into CMBB, I've never looked back, It has so much depth and immersion.

[Phemur]

It seems that infantry are like 100 times tougher to kill than tanks, even using tanks against the infantry.

Believe me, infantry isn't that tough. I've attempted assaults on enemy infantry before, and I've gotten my arse kicked. In one particular assault, I sent a full Russian SMG company against a German SS Panzer Grenadier Platoon, supported with 1 MG42 HMG. Suffice to say, my assault failed, and I lost a horrendous amount of men.

What you have to realize is that even though a squad keeps running after you've shot it to hell and back is that it may be broken. In war, battles weren't lost because the enemy was wiped out to the last man. They were lost because the enemy lost its nerve, and went running back to the rear of its line.

Tanks may seem easier to kill, simply because when its out of action, its much more evident. A broken/panicked squad is just as useless as a destroyed tank, except that it may still run around the battlefield like a chicken with its head cut off.

At the same time, properly used, infantry can be quite a deadly force. If a squad gets within 20m of a tank unmolested, that tank is in trouble. Infantry squads can have grenades, rocket launchers, demolition charges, etc. A tank passing close to a well-disciplined hidden infantry unit it's going to get knocked out.

One thing I noticed too, is that if i'm waiting on the defensive, things are agonizingly slow to wait for the advance of opposing armies. In that one map, it took the germans 20 turns to even SHOW UP on my map! That took a LOONG time, even fast forwarding through it every time.

In some games, it may take a while before enemy troops meet. Certainly, in Meeting Engagement type scenarios, players will move a few recon units to probe the enemy, try to find out where his main line of advance may be, and move the rest of his troops accordingly. Sometime it can take up to 15-20 turns before the enemy is even spotted.

In other games, half your force (or your enemy's) is dead on the first turn. It depends on the map, game type, setup, etc.

Combat Mission models WWII combat extremely well, better than any other game system out there. If you're used to faster paced games, like Warcraft or C&C, then CM will seem slower. But after a few game, you'll be praying that the game slows down a bit, just so you can get your T-34 out of range of that monster Tiger that just popped over the hill, or get your troops in cover from the artillery that started falling.

I've played almost every RTS out there, from Warcraft I all the way to CM, and CM is by far the most nerve-wracking, nail-biting games I've played. I have two PBEM going on at a time, and I often play against the TacAI to try out strategies, units, etc. That's more than I can say for the other games.

CM requires thought and pretty solid knowledge of WWII tactics to be effective. If you've spent any time on this site reading other discussions, you'll see that people here know an awful lot about WWII. It takes a lot of time and patience to get there (fortunately, the people on this site are more than willing to help. Just look at how many responses you've had for this post).

But believe me, it's worth it. There are very few things that are as satisfying as getting an email from your opponent, cursing you for outsmarting him and eliminating half his armor with a much smaller force.

Phemur

[undead reindeer cavalry]

I know that infantry that are dug in are supposed to be tough, though I still think bombarding a single infantry foxhole with 15 tanks and still not killing it in 3 rounds is way too tough.

shooting at sorry fellows hiding in a foxhole does no good unless you have BIG GUNS. if you don't have BIG GUNS, and won't get right over the sissy peeps hiding in that uncomfortable-but-secure hole, you will just waste ammo.

just imagine them hiding in that hole, unseen & under ground. now how do you imagine that the bullets and such will hit & tear apart their fragile bodies thru all that soil? no freaking way. you can shoot at them for days while they are just sitting there, playing cards, writing letters and looking at naughty pictures.

you need to BLAST them away with BIG GUNS ...if you insist on shooting at the foxhole from distance.

Using machine guns or main gun, infantry running in open ground won't die in the demo when I attack them with machine guns or with main guns, using veteran tanks, and lots of them.

they are dying, not just fast enough for your likes. get closer to them. use bigger guns or get more machineguns.

remember that each soldier on the screen represents some 3-4 soldiers in reality.

It seems the computer has a much easier time destroying objects than me.

computer good, you bad. you learn.

Are these things changed in the full version, or is AI just super godlike like in all games, and infantry way tough to kill even when uncovered?

AI is just super godlike and infantry way tough to kill even when uncovered.

[MikeyD]

I think the general consensus is the CMBB demo scenarios don't show the game off to its best advantage, they were more to highlight to the CMBO player the differences between the two games. The old CMBO demo scenarios got themselves played and replayed dozens of times, and even got transferred over to CMBB to be played some more! The CMBB scenarios didn't get replayed that much.

Remember in the demo you've got conscript infantry. In the full game you can go for crack guards units if you like. In the demo you've got no heavy armor. In the full game you've got Ferdinand TDs and ISU-152s to choose from.

As for game speed, I believe the current version may be about 6-7% faster at processing. Processing speed depends on scenario. If you're manhandling an infantry battalion on each side that'll of course process slower than an all-armor quickbattle with a half dozen tanks each.

AND, since the demo came out there have been three significant patches to the game changing everything from bog rates to the tendency of 37mm AP to shatter.

[ July 10, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[White Phosphorus]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

As for game speed, I believe the current version may be about 6-7% faster at processing. Processing speed depends on scenario. If you're manhandling an infantry battalion on each side that'll of course process slower than an all-armor quickbattle with a half dozen tanks each.

I think large armored battles are calculated much slower than the infantry ones. The armor hits take quite a bit of processing to figure out. In fact I can actually predict what will happen in the replay just by looking at the loading bar. Try killing a Ferdinand with a battalion of AT rifles, the turns turn will take forever to process.

[dieseltaylor]

I do not know if it is modelled in the game but I have always understood that if you have many guns firing at a target then correcting your own aim becomes quite difficult if shots are landing pretty much simultaneously. How do you know which miss, or even a hit relates to your aim, how do you correct it? Is it you shooting over or are you the one shooting short?

Good this be an example of subtle programming?

[tar]

f you want a game that 100% transfers you to WW2 and that is a 100% accurate simulation of WW2 balltelfield on a tactical level I suggest you wait untill science invents the Start Trek Enterprice's "Holodec"

Of course, they're working on it (except the WWII part):

http://www.ict.usc.edu/

Especially the Mission Rehearsal Exercise:

http://www.ict.usc.edu/disp.php?bd=proj_mr

[ July 10, 2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: tar ]

[Raziaar]

Thanks everyone. Well, I ordered the game. Too bad I didn't do it monday or such, cause I won't have it for the weekend.

I have a feeling i'll be very pleased about this game. Hope i'll get good enough, or at least get a hang of the game enough to challenge some of you here, it seems like a very nice community of people.

One primary reason of getting is to sustain me for half-life 2, come 9/30 which will in turn sustain me until Rome: Total War's release. However, all three games I believe will be among some of my favorite and constantly played.

[lcm1947]

A fellow Texan hey? Well, welcome to the forum and the game. You said something about buying other upcoming games? Well, I doubt you'll buy anymore after getting this one but I could be wrong. I've been playing CMBO for the past 3 years + and recently bought this one and imagine I won't be buying another until CMAK comes out. I just can't get into anything else after these. They are all so lacking in my opinion anyway. Well, keep us posted and you should have your game within 3 days, at least that's how long it took to get mine and I'm in Austin.

[Howard R]

I've been playing CMBO for a couple of years, nd started out with Squad Leader in the late '70s. It takes a while to really get the hang of the tactics. You'll lose big time a few times, and then try something newl and suddenly not be losing.

The demos for CMBB are not representative of the included scenarios. They are also not as good and the CMBO demo scenarios from a few years ago. I was hooked after the first demo game I played, and ordered about ann hour after completing the download.