KV-I Bitchfest

[BulletRat]

Time to rectify a few things:

Consider letting the computer pick forces for both sides, using standard rarity.

I've tried doing that before, and always seem to be battling to find an opponent who will play this setting.

try this

ONLY play pre-built scenario's against folks you trust.

The problem exists you think "buying" forces is a reasonable way to play CMBB.

the entire concept of "buying" you own forces is GAMEY and everything that follows thereafter can therefore be considered equally gamey.

So what your saying is that it is GAMEY to buy KV1's ?

is that correct?

-tom w

Prebuilt scenarios are for playing against the AI as far as I'm concerned, QBs offer that random map where each battle has to be thought out individually.

I consider buying KV-Is gamey when buying them in a small points battle - knowing that theres a very slim chance your opponent has a chance of knocking it out.

Personally I like to buy my own units, and I try to keep them to reasonably realistic guidelines. To those naysayers who whinge about my buying 2 150mm guns, they can be killed - and both were, one by a 45mm AT gun, the other by the KV itself.

Ok lets take a look at what you got

I see 3x81mm mortar spotters

just smoke his BUTT he will either leave the hill to get a shot at some thing or wait for it to go away and you only need 1 of them to screw him up

This might have worked, however I would have needed to smoke out half the map just to safely move my tanks so they couldn't be touched by the KV-I or the 3 ATGs covering it.

To all the people who say things like "attack it with pioneers" and "get flank shots with light guns" it is almost impossible against an opponent of equal skill. The presence of a KV means the Axis player must be a lot better than the Allied to have any chance of KOing it. Any player with brains will guard the heck out of his biggest, most valuable investment, and open ground/MGs and the KV itself with HE, MGs, and canoster will stop cold any clever pio charge. As for towing guns around it's flanks, I'd like to play the player who can't kill an unsupported, blind HT or truck.

I don't need to add a thing to that.

So let me get this straight, you are loaded up to kill some infantry and then pissed because someone shows up with a tank? You have 5 blinkin Panzers to his 1 KV1. HELLO! Sorry if this comes off wrong but that is just sad. You like many other people who complain about complete non-issues do so because your grand "scheme" has not worked.

Basically you have the most unrealistic of the two unit choices, POWER PLAYED to the max it seems to kill infantry. I mean comon you complain because someone buys a KVI you bring to uber infantry bang bang guns that have already been described as rare and you complain about the other guy?????

Get over it already, you lost, to most likely a better player not his/her psuedo gamey unit choice.

I actually had to laugh at this one.

Hi, newbie - let me educate you. The 5 Panzer 38(t)Es I bought are armed with a 37mm/L48, best penetration ability is 67mm @ 100m, 0 degrees.

Now, the thinnest armour on a KV-I M41 is 60mm at 50 degrees - that's on its upper arse end. Sides and front are all 75mm or better.

If you think my 5 tanks had a better than even chance of killing his one tank let's play - I'll even let you have the 5 Pz 38s you seem to be so sure they can win.

If you won't take me up on this - and I very much doubt you will, **** off, shut ya yap, and learn a bit more about the game before commenting on things you havn't a clue about.

There, now I feel much better.

[Redwolf]

I have a 2/3rd finished set of armor rules along the lines of the old Fionn rules. They specify vehicle limits for timeframes so that only vehiles are allowed that can be penetrated by non-rare opponent guns and vehicles.

I don't intend to finish it, but if anybody wants to do it I'd be happy to mail what I have so far. You will need to do some rarity digging in the charts to finish it and make some tradeoffs that don't quite fit but will make players happy.

Note I said mail. I know this thread will probably degenerate into a "rules suck" flamefest from people who don't need rules in the first place and I'lll proabably not read on when that happens.

[Esper]

Thank you so much GreenGriffon!! Was a lot better then what I was thinking.. Connect to IRC get my host name then do a reverse DNS look up. I should still get around to resetting that password tho someday

[ February 27, 2003, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Esper ]

[Esper]

*double post*

[ February 27, 2003, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: Esper ]

[Priest]

Hahahaaha newbie!

Right, sure if being since the Beta demo is a newbie then why not.

So you do not want to play pre-gens, okay whatever, sounds like an excuse to not allow your own "gamey" purchases if you want to go down that road.

As far as armour qoutes and all that, yeah I know, the KV I is a tough beast. In fact I could go and consult all these lovely books on the subject or any of the nice websites that I at time frequent with regards to tank construction, history, and technology.

Now I obviously overestimated your mental prowess. I had assumed that you understood the killing the "bad guy" (moving to simple terms here for you) was not the only way to win. Five to One ratio means that you will be able to manuever your armour to areas in which he cannot cover, it means that you have more flexibility and if I am not mistaken since the KV I is not equipped with subspace transporter/teleporter technology it cannot be everywhere at once. Now you have five panzers and smoke shells, movement should not be an issue at least from cover to cover. Not to mention that the ATR could provide covering fire and keep the KV I buttoned. So you can reduce the visibility two fold, you have more tactical flexibility and this should allow to strip (here is the key so listen good) a lot of the infantry cover away. Once you thin that out you can pressure the KV I from the flanks with the Panzers (kill or not you can make your opponent think) you can manuever with more freedom your infantry. Movement and feints become key as you move in and fade from all sides. The KV I's turret adjusting back and forth. Now maybe your opponent moves the KV I to break it out, super now you have more tactical space un which to operate, mission accomplished. The goal is not to kill the KV I but to dictate the sitaution in which the engagement takes place within. This may or may not result in the death of the KV I but if you are successful should result in a victory at some level, whether or not the KV I is dead or not is irrelavent.

Now you say "I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU DO THAT" and to that I would say, maybe I could. I am no Uber Player and I do not claim to be one. I do extremely well in certain types of battles (CMMC) and fare well in most others. Few people could do this easily, Fionn comes to mind. But therein lies the challenge, and also the beauty of the CM games. There is no easy way, just like in history. There is no extra Vespian gas to be mined to get the Panzer Power UP, no nuclear upgrade to the 150mm guns. And there is certainly no reason to cry " BUT IF THEY USE THE TANK WITH ALL THE ARMOUR I CANNOT KILL IT BOO HOO BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FIT IN WITH HOW I WANT THE GAME TO GO OR MY NEW MASTER PLAN. I WANT TO CLAIM I WANT HISTORICAL GAMES BUT AT THE SAME TIME BALANCED BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS AND GERMANS ALWAYS HAD BALANCED BATTLES. I MEAN OF COURSE NO KV I WENT WHERE THERE WERE NO 88mm GUNS BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS WOULDN'T DO THAT. IT IS NOT LIKE THE GERMANS WERE EVER PRESSURED TO ACTUALLY KILL ONE WHEN NOT ON TOTAL AND COMPLETE EQUAL SETTING!"

If you would a more "balanced" setting try here.

http://www.gamelists.net/command-and-conquer/

I hear the nuclear blaster towers are keen but perfectly balanced with the sub atomic tanks.

So lets review, understand that CM games require a higher level of thinking and that sometimes you have to think "outside the PowerGamer" box to actually be successful. The KV I can be killed, and yes it might be hard, and it might not be possible by someone of your skill level (not an insult as I freely admitted I may not be able to do it myself) but that is not a problem with the historical accuracy of the game nor the historical accuracy of the situation (you had guns that were probably more rare in that situation). This is a problem with either the time and thought you are willing to commit to the endeavour or the need for more practice and excerise with regards to situations such as these.

Blaming your opponents, blaming the options and situations, and closing your mind to all of the offered solutions simply sounds like you cannot take losing, especially when it seems this is a fatal hole in your skillset with regards to CM games.

Losing teaches you more than winning, but is normally not a reason to rant on a forum.

[SgtMuhammed]

Saw that coming.

Priest, welcome to CMBB. You are really going to love this game. (Can you smell the irony.)

One thing to remember is that these tanks did fight somewhere. Sure there is a rarity factor but if you look at the accounts it wasn't because they never appeared on the battlefield but because they only appeared in ones and twos. In other words, if your opponent buys one or two then it is pretty realistic, if he buys a company (which actually did happen, rare but it did happen) then you can be upset. Plus you can wonder how the heck he got those points.

[Cyber]

I wouldn't jump up and down too much about that 80% rarity factor. I just bought 2 KV-1S for a scenario in July '43 and rarity was only 30%. But they're still quite expensive and on that scenario blew my entire budget for armor (couldn't sqeeze anymore into the armor limit).

Now I'll be the first to admit these are nasty tanks. Becket certainly knows this after I stomped all over his armor with them. The only concern I've seen using them so far (I admit it, I'm a noob so I could easily be wrong) is that they don't seem to be very easy to even get a track hit on and immobilize. I'm not sure how frequent something like that is on other tanks, but Becket has gotten 4-5 track hits on one of my KV-1 tanks in my game with him and it's still moving. Though I think his track hits where from his silly little AT Rifle team that I was ignoring while I chased down his last PzIII so probably not damaging enough.

The other thing you need to remember about them is compared to your Panzers they're SLOOOOOW. Super slow, they don't turn fast, thier turrets aren't fast, nothing about them is quick.

They're tough tanks, espicially early on in the war, but they're not invincible.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Two per infantry regiment of the L/11 guns, which probably makes it about even, with an edge for the KV1 (there were ~1,300 or so T34 and KV1 when the Germans attacked, according to Glantz).

And how many were deployed in frontline troops?

The vast majority of KV tanks (in June '41) were assigned to divisions and brigades held in reserve behind Moscow.

The German infantry divisions were up front.

I'd say there were far more infantry guns within two miles of the front than there were KV tanks.

Most of the KV tanks produced after the invasion were sent directly to frontline troops.

Cheers

Olle </font>

[SuperSulo]

Not saying anything about who's right and who's wrong (you all know who is ), but BulletRat said in his first post, 4 out of 4 of his battles featured KV's. No matter how you slice it, that's... quite often.

I think if a single piece of equipment gets used too often, some of the "magic" get taken away from it. If I see a KV on the battle field I want to think "Oh ****, now this is special occation, how should I deal with this monster", not "... and there's the ever-present KV...".

But what do I know, to this date I haven't played a single player vs. player game.

[BulletRat]

If you're going to sink to insulting me Priest I suggest you go and re-read my opening statement with an open mind before questioning my intelligence.

As far as armour qoutes and all that, yeah I know, the KV I is a tough beast.

Tough? Yes. Rare? YES.

This is my complaint, despite its rarity and cost, everyone who has played against me in the last 4 battles (sub-1000, 1941), ALL bought the KV-I (one guy bought 4 of the ****ing things!)

Now you have five panzers and smoke shells, movement should not be an issue at least from cover to cover. Not to mention that the ATR could provide covering fire and keep the KV I buttoned.

Exactly what it did do.

Once you thin that out you can pressure the KV I from the flanks with the Panzers (kill or not you can make your opponent think) you can manuever with more freedom your infantry. Movement and feints become key as you move in and fade from all sides. The KV I's turret adjusting back and forth.

(Forgot to mention it earlier - forgot, also bought a Panzer IIC)

Brought the IIC up to fast move up the OPPOSITE side of the map in order to draw the KV-Is attention away from my Pz 38s which were about to scramble up the other side - the IIC got caned by one of his ATGs, the KV-I returned to covering its original area. No-go for the 38s. Too risky to chance both the KV-I and 2 ATGs they would have had to scramble past.

Once again I'll remind you the KV-I was on a hill, the only cover nearby was a patch of woods about 200m from it.... occupied by his entrenched infantry, yes I did use my arty on it, coordinated to stop when my infantry charged across to take it. Failed miserably.

Finally running out of turns, men, and options I charged my remaining 3 tanks up the side of the map they were originally intended to go in an effort to grab the flags, KV got 2 of em, ATG got the other despite it (the ATG) having been subjected to 81mm arty barrage and 150mm area fire.

Maybe I was unlucky, maybe unskilled, probably a bit of both - but you were not there, you did not see the map (bleedin I didn't take a screenie now), you did not face the situation I did, therefore it's not up to you to pass judgement on what might have been.

Finally, a quick check on your details confirmed what I suspected, american - mid 20's, why am I so not surprised?

[Sergei]

Here's the monthly rarity values for all KV's in 1941. These are for Combined, but eg. in June there's no KV's in Finnish theater. As you can see, the rarity has a lot of variety.

June 1941

KV-1 m.1939 80%

KV-1 m.1940 30%

KV-2 65%

July 1941

KV-1 m.1939 100%

KV-1 m.1940 40%

KV-2 65%

August 1941

KV-1 m.1939 100%

KV-1 m.1940 40%

KV-1 m.1941 80%

KV-2 80%

September 1941

KV-1 m.1939 100%

KV-1 m.1940 30%

KV-1 m.1941 50%

KV-2 80%

October 1941

KV-1 m.1939 100%

KV-1 m.1940 30%

KV-1 m.1941 20%

KV-1E 30%

KV-2 65%

November 1941

KV-1 m.1939 80%

KV-1 m.1940 30%

KV-1 m.1941 10%

KV-1E 20%

KV-2 65%

December 1941

KV-1 m.1939 80%

KV-1 m.1940 30%

KV-1 m.1941 5%

KV-1E 30%

KV-2 65%

Rarity values do not necessarily work for more balanced games, because obviously the weapons that Germans would have needed for effectively dealing with KV's were also rare at the time. In 1941 FlaK 88 has 100%-80% rarities. Now, if KV-1 m.40 has 30% rarity and 88mm FlaK has 80% rarity in September, AND the base prices are meant for balanced play, it is obvious that historical rarity produces imbalanced games.

There's a thread here about the KV menace and possible solutions for cracking it.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Welcome Mr Priest to this fine forum. I see you're new here so I'm wondering whether you'd like some tips on how to play this fine game called CMBB. We can even have a game if you wish & seeing as you're new here I'll allow you to have a plus 20% force increment.

Regards

Jim R.

[Becket]

Originally posted by Cyber:

Becket certainly knows this after I stomped all over his armor with them.

We shall be revenged!!

[RSColonel_131st]

Do the 150mm's have a chance to kill it with HE?

Heavy Arty comes to mind...and of course, smoke use would have been clever.

I prefer Axis myself, and I dont hesitate to buy a Tiger if I can. Of course I accept that my opponent might bring up 3 or 4 self propelled guns or captured StuGs for the same match, which can easily knock out even a Tiger. For good measure, in a single player team I once had a russian 14,7mm ATG timmobilize my cat trough a track hit.

With that in mind, I'd never complain about facing a KV-1. QB's aren't by any means historical OOB's, they simple allow to buy what fits your playing style best. If someone wants to put all his points into a single tank that might end up bogged or otherwise unsuable...let him. I'm sure there are creative ways to take out such a monster.

[Becket]

By the way, lest anyone read Cyber's comments and think "see, KV-1s are invincible," you should know that (a) I gave him crack troops as a handicapping measure and ( I'm not any good.

Anyway, I made a ton of mistakes but I'm fairly certain I could've killed one of the beasts had I played better.

I have zero problem with seeing KV-1s and KV-2s on the early battlefield, or Tigers in 43 (killable once you know the right Soviet units to use), or KTs in 45. For me, I'm just playing to have fun moving my little toy soldiers around trying to accomplish objectives. Some objectives are harder than others, but if you aren't playing with the Tiger Woods mentality (i.e., "coming in second sucks") it's not that big of a deal.

[Sardaukar]

Going against KV-1s in 1941..tough. **** happens and it's not ahistorical. Those beasts did delay some of the most experienced tankers from PanzerGruppe Guderian for considerable time.

If there are no rules agreed beforehand, it'd consider it extremely lame to complain about opponent who uses his purchase points best way he thinks. I had a game recently that got me against platoon of Tiger Is..them having hill position and all. I had Valentine IXs and T-34s..as it was, I was outgunned, outbought and totally out of luck **** happens..get over it..opponent will not keel over and surrender. He will buy a damn Sturmtiger if he thinks it'll suit his plan despite rarity if he can afford it.

Poor selection of forces and inferior tactics are easily explained by blaming opponent selecting "gamey" units.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Ex Bellator]

Well I for one sympathise with the original poster. I have stopped playing 1941 battles against those I don't know as I also kept seeing one or more in every game. I make a no KV purchase rule with any that I do know.

A KV in 1941 is the only time you can get a virtually invincible unit, even King Tigers can always be killed by something, in fact lots of things when you get at the side. KVs cannot be killed short of an 88 (which is not an option unless the Germans are defending) or an idiotic player driving them into a nest of infantry. There is no comparable situation with any unit later on in the war.

A figure I recall seeing on this forum is that T-34s and KVs combined added up to 1300 tanks around the start of Barbarossa, out of a total Russian tank strength of 32,000. So then only 1 out of every 25 tanks was EITHER a T34 (which are fairly easy to deal with in the game in '41) or a KV, which is exactly why the Germans could cope. I would appreciate sight of KV figures alone v's total tank figures if anyone has them. However, at least half the tanks I was seeing in 1941 CMBB were T-34s/KVs.

I don't think there is anything wrong at all with how they are modelled, or the fact that people can use them whenever they feel, but I hope they understand how frustrating it gets when you are faced by them over and over again. The main tactic which works is simply to avoid them on the field wherever you can, and I'll wager some of the suggestions I've seen here were never actually tried by their authors

[ February 27, 2003, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ]

[Big Ron]

Try not to slander everyone who plays the Russians. I've just had my arse kicked because I picked a platoon of BT-7's and in all my CMBB games I've not even used a T-34 never mind a KV

[Ex Bellator]

Bravo Big Ron, that's exactly the kind of force pick that opponents will respect. I too have never used a KV in 41 as the Russians, where's the fun in winning with one of them anyway.

[V]

Originally posted by Tigrii:

To all the people who say things like "attack it with pioneers" and "get flank shots with light guns" it is almost impossible against an opponent of equal skill. The presence of a KV means the Axis player must be a lot better than the Allied to have any chance of KOing it. Any player with brains will guard the heck out of his biggest, most valuable investment, and open ground/MGs and the KV itself with HE, MGs, and canoster will stop cold any clever pio charge. As for towing guns around it's flanks, I'd like to play the player who can't kill an unsupported, blind HT or truck.

If playing an opponent who is skilled, insist that he either not chose the KV tank in these early invasion battles, or tell him he has to use green or conscript tanks if you really feel that it would be unfair.

Or try setting the map to be tree heavy.

Or, just let him use the KV and bask in the great joy which comes when you actually figure out how to kill the bitch. Or when you see the crew panic due to mortar fire and back up right into one of your pioneers!

[ February 27, 2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: V ]

[V]

Originally posted by General Tacticus:

What's that in the sky? Right there - plummetting towards that KV1 on the hilltop....why, it's a stuka!

LMAO!!!

Excellent point also.

Can I use that in my sig?

[V]

Originally posted by Esper:

That is sort of the reason I have been apprehensive about playing against someone else, I like playing and sticking to realistic/historic choices.. and being somewhat new.. Am unsure who the "anything goes" people are and who are of the more historical slant...

I am of the more historical slant.

If you want to get the most history out of your battles, then play designed scenarios and don't play QB's!

Quick Battles are the spawn of the devil and should be avoided by the historical minded gentleman.

There are plenty of small, balanced historical scenarios which can be played via TCP/IP.

Hopefully, somed day soon, Der kessel will have their byte battle section going for CMBB.

Also, go to the scenario depot and download some of the smaller "Gross Deutschland" (GD)scenarios, they are usually very well done with good history attached.

[V]

Originally posted by BulletRat:

Hi, newbie - let me educate you. The 5 Panzer 38(t)Es I bought are armed with a 37mm/L48, best penetration ability is 67mm @ 100m, 0 degrees.

Now, the thinnest armour on a KV-I M41 is 60mm at 50 degrees - that's on its upper arse end. Sides and front are all 75mm or better.

If you think my 5 tanks had a better than even chance of killing his one tank let's play - I'll even let you have the 5 Pz 38s you seem to be so sure they can win.

If you won't take me up on this - and I very much doubt you will, **** off, shut ya yap, and learn a bit more about the game before commenting on things you havn't a clue about.

You don't have to knock the tank out.

Just get a gun hit.

take out a track.

keep the KV spinning in circles using smoke and flank moves.

I would rather have 5 Pz 38's against 1 KV if given the right map conditions. Good tree cover and lots of hills.

But, if the battle is on an open steppe, it will be hard to beat the KV with 5 Pz 38's.

It is certainly not impossible. And you did not lose because your opponents purchased KV's.

You probably lost because you failed to take out the KV's or find a way to win around them.

In other words, you failed.

To put it simply, learn how to take out the KV in early war situations.

Design a scenario, have the computer make a random map and give yourself what you would normally buy in your QB of choice. Do the same for the soviet side, what you usually face at that point level. Then figure out different ways to kill the KV against the AI.

It will be tough to bridge that to playing a human, but thats the challenge.

[Lumbergh]

Originally posted by BulletRat:

Prebuilt scenarios are for playing against the AI as far as I'm concerned, QBs offer that random map where each battle has to be thought out individually.

I consider buying KV-Is gamey when buying them in a small points battle - knowing that theres a very slim chance your opponent has a chance of knocking it out.

Personally I like to buy my own units, and I try to keep them to reasonably realistic guidelines. To those naysayers who whinge about my buying 2 150mm guns, they can be killed - and both were, one by a 45mm AT gun, the other by the KV itself.

Ok, well, you clearly want to have your cake and eat it too.

IF you want historical accuracy, then you play a historical scenario. Bam, there it is, pure and simple.

If you play a QB and wish to limit yourself to more realistic units, then find an opponent who will agree to play under your rules. Why not say "nothing over 25% rarity"?

If you play a QB against a random schmo, yes, of course they are going to pick a KV-1, they want to win!

As an aside, I don't see why you are anti-scenario. The best 2p experiences I've had have been scenarios...they allow the designers to introduce problems that would never crop up in a QB. Each unto their own though!

[V]

Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

Well I for one sympathise with the original poster. I have stopped playing 1941 battles against those I don't know as I also kept seeing one or more in every game. I make a no KV purchase rule with any that I do know.

A KV in 1941 is the only time you can get a virtually invincible unit, even King Tigers can always be killed by something, in fact lots of things when you get at the side. KVs cannot be killed short of an 88 (which is not an option unless the Germans are defending) or an idiotic player driving them into a nest of infantry. There is no comparable situation with any unit later on in the war.

A figure I recall seeing on this forum is that T-34s and KVs combined added up to 1300 tanks around the start of Barbarossa, out of a total Russian tank strength of 32,000. So then only 1 out of every 25 tanks was EITHER a T34 (which are fairly easy to deal with in the game in '41) or a KV, which is exactly why the Germans could cope. I would appreciate sight of KV figures alone v's total tank figures if anyone has them. However, at least half the tanks I was seeing in 1941 CMBB were T-34s/KVs.

I don't think there is anything wrong at all with how they are modelled, or the fact that people can use them whenever they feel, but I hope they understand how frustrating it gets when you are faced by them over and over again. The main tactic which works is simply to avoid them on the field wherever you can, and I'll wager some of the suggestions I've seen here were never actually tried by their authors

That makes sense.

But the KV is not invincible. And I refuse to agree that having a certain type of tank, one single tank, assures the Soviets of defeat.

There are so many other variables.

Also, the bigger the map gets, the less effective a lone tank can be.

Aircraft is also one German weapon which can always take out a KV.

One could always, as you have, just refuse to play QB's set in 1941.

Or, even better, refuse to play them at all.