JeremyCupit Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Being a long time player of CMBO, and living in England, my main interest in WW2 was the western front. I had therefore decided not to purchase CMBB until I had upgraded my PC from a lowly P600. Now, this morning I've just finished reading "The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer. This book has been an absolute revelation to me in its emotionally charged depiction of life on the eastern front. Sajer's recounting of the trials and torments that he goes through in 3 years of fighting the Russians, including his painful return to France where he finds himself an outcast, have left me emotionally drained. I would recommend this book to anyone who has any interest in WW2, and wants an insight into the hellish nightmare that was an infantry soldiers world. I will now be buying CMBB as soon as I have established that the demo runs smoothly on my PC. I dread hearing the shouts of "Ourrah Pobieda" echoing out of the frozen fog.... Jeremy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Murray Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Welcome to " The Club ". Just be prepared to do a lot of downloading. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mies Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Guy Sajer's book is well written and gets a lot of the "emotions of war" across, but it is fictional. If you're interested in good stuff on the Eastern Front check this thread. It has a lot of good books listed. I personally recommend Bierdermann's book. Great story illustrated with original photographs. Mies 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikko H. Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Guy Sajer's book is well written and gets a lot of the "emotions of war" across, but it is fictional. I would rather say jury's still out. This is one of the greatest ongoing controversies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joques Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Mies: but it is fictional.This has not been established. Granted, there is some controversy, and as Sajer himself (contrary to myth, he does exist) wants nothing to do with public life, and refuses to comment, the controversy has been perpetuated. [ January 21, 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Joques ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetchez la Vache Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Bidermann's book is better imo. I too asked the question about the fiction/non-fiction aspect of Sajer's book a while ago but didn't get any replies unfortunately. *edit* It's so good Amazon have run out! [ January 21, 2003, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Fetchez la Vache ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak_43 Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I can also recommend "Through Hell for Hitler" by Henry Metelmann... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryker Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I think Sajer's book is authentic. The Forgotten Soldier: Fact or Fiction 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Mies: Guy Sajer's book is well written and gets a lot of the "emotions of war" across, but it is fictional.No it is not. If you are going to present statements and/or accusations like that you'd better provide some sources while you're at it too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Pak_43: I can also recommend "Through Hell for Hitler" by Henry Metelmann...That is a very interesting one. Quite unusual I thought. Makes a nice change from the usual ra-ra stuff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mies: Guy Sajer's book is well written and gets a lot of the "emotions of war" across, but it is fictional.No it is not. If you are going to present statements and/or accusations like that you'd better provide some sources while you're at it too.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Mikko H.: I would rather say jury's still out. Reading the articles by Lt.Col Nash and Lt.Col Kennedy on Michael Dorosh's page (link in Stryker's post), suggests to me that not only is the jury still out, but the hotel they are staying is going to make a healthy profit . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Reich Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Pak_43: I can also recommend "Through Hell for Hitler" by Henry Metelmann...that is a good one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: But it is certainly amusing that you can lay down a blanket "no it is not" as if you served in the GD yourself, and demand sources and rational explanation when you have given none yourself. Well, as you will note, my statement is about as blunt as his original "it is a fake". It was mearly intended as the starting point of a discussion. If someone blurts out "this is false", I should not have to reply with the full list of all my reasons as to why he is wrong. My initial answer could very well be "no its not, besides what are your sources for that statement". As with everything else, it is up to the person making the claim to substantiate it with evidence. My post should be seen as nothing other than a request for such evidence. [ January 21, 2003, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Two wrongs don't make a right... I can't prove Rommel wrote INFANTRY ATTACKS, but it is generally accepted that he did. Short of sitting down and watching a person write a book word for word, what kind of proof could there possibly be? All we have is the subjective wisdom of historians, book reviewers, and yes, even the "common man" as to whether or not any book was actually written by the person whose name appears on the cover. As far as Sajer goes, as has been expertly pointed out, the controversy will likely never be cleared up. Until someone to present some sort of documenary evidence - a photo, a Soldbuch, a roll with Sajer and Wesdreidau's names on it, we have only the word of a man who - if he exists - wishes not to provide any proof of his existence(!) One wouldn't be expected to prove Rommel ever existed, but I would suggest Sajer's case is a special one, given the number of odd comments made in the book. I am led to believe an examination of the original French version clears up some of the odd nomenclature, but the question is - do the errors go deeper than nomenclature, or even the vagaries of human memory? In the end the true question would be - does it matter? If the book is authentic in "feel", as evidenced by other German veterans, then it probably does not. From what I've read, the "feel" is wrong, too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I've read it ... and true or not I enjoyed reading the war from the perspective of an average infantryman. That said I think prefer 'Cross of Iron' by Willi Heinrich. Enemy at the Gates ..... (very little in common with the film)...... is a good read ... maybe the best of the three ... It shows the whole fight, from the view of commanders in their field HQ's and their battle with higher, remote commands (Hitler / Stalin) to the view of the infantryman, cold, starving and terrified, sturggling to just to stay alive. Like the others there is no 'glory of war' here. As for the Sajer fact or fiction question... well if it is fiction its good enough to pass for fact ... otherwise there would be no debate ! Just my opinion ....and as i've read all 3 im entitled to it Lou2000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mies Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 No it is not. If you are going to present statements and/or accusations like that you'd better provide some sources while you're at it too. It seems I have stirred up a hornet's nest, which was not my intention. Actually from the first time I read the "Forgotten Soldier" (must have been 15 years old) I always regarded it as being authentic. Only the last couple of years I have my doubts about the book being (semi-) fictional. I wanted to reply sooner giving this link. Someone else posted it as well and concluded from it that the Sajer's book must be real. In my opinion it puts at least a question mark behind it. On the other hand there are also articles out there that prove all the criticasters wrong, especially Lt-Col. Kennedy's view on the book with a first hand account from Guy Sajer self. Have a look here and search for "Sajer". I should have taken more care in putting my personal opinion down here without any prove. Let everyone read up on the subject if they want and make up their own mind. Mies 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thin Red Line Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 I remember reading The Forgotten Soldier (in the original french version) at age of 17. It was an amazing plunge into Eastern Front. It is an extraodinary book, and in literature the debate about autbiographical authenticity is always somehow secondary. (Did Dante really visit Hell ?) The Forgotten Soldier is a reading of great interest to all the CMBB players. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Originally posted by Fetchez la Vache: It's so good Amazon have run out!But it's in stock at Barnes & Noble 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Ironically, the same accusations have been made against The Black March which is another great autobiography about a German soldier's exeriences on the East Front. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Just finished Blood Red Snow by Günter K. Koschorrek. Very good read. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 I can't really put my finger on it, but the book just doesn't "feel" right to me. While reading other accounts of the eastfront I didn't doubt the contents. But in TFS the names are strange, the expressions for items seem off etc. etc . Compare this book to Bidermann, Eichner and others and it leaves a strange taste in your mouth. Nontheless some parts were a good read. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Originally posted by Pak40: Ironically, the same accusations have been made against The Black March which is another great autobiography about a German soldier's exeriences on the East Front. Yes, the same accusations have been made against The Black March but it has long been my understanding that The Black March IS fiction. I was told that the book was first serialized in some sort of "men's magazine" in Germany in the late '50s and that many Waffen SS veterans complained about it at the time. While there may be inaccuracies in Sajer's book, they do not compare to all the wild claims in The Black March (e.g. Panthers in 1942, executing prisoners with flamethrowers etc.)... I've been collecting books containing personal accounts of the eastern front for over 20 years and I'm pretty firm in my belief that The Black March is one of the weakest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Isn't it about time that this thread devolve into a discussion of Paul Carell? Foxbat, where are you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.