Infantry versus Tank Question

[PlatCmdr]

I'm playing a PBEM right now where I have several squads whom, while hunkered down in the woods, immobilized one Pz IIIJ (late), but now refuse to finish it off by tossing more grenades at it.

The three squads are broken down as two Russian Recon and one Rifle element, the distances being 16, 22, and 35 meters away from the target. They also are in command contact with their respective HQs. "Alerted" and "Cautious" are the only stutus changes from time to time as the still very much alive, yet immobile, PzIIIJ, still is taking a crack at them.

What am I doing wrong? I know Pioneer Infantry would be best in this situation, but why are these units not engaging this target?

[Elmo]

Units labeled cautious aren't going to take risks. At least not according to pg 142 in the manual. Sounds like they have decided it's better to keep their heads down for now.

[PlatCmdr]

Originally posted by Elmo:

Units labeled cautious aren't going to take risks. At least not according to pg 142 in the manual. Sounds like they have decided it's better to keep their heads down for now.

True, and this does apply to the two closest squads who went in and out of shock as they received area fire around them. But, the third squad, which is only 35 meters away, has a lit target line on the tank, is unphased by area fire (remaining "ready" the whole time) but still refusing to engage the tank. I've had them pitch grenades from as far a 40 meters before, but that was in a town, and thereign might lie the problem? Are distances for tossing explosives and grendaes limited when in the woods or forest?

[Cpl Carrot]

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules that you can apply to tank assualts. I have had units sit and look at tanks for turns on end and have had nothing happen. Other times I have had squad toss granades so fast the first one has not exploded before they toss the second.

So I don't think you are doing anything wrong, and the squads will assualt when they feel like it.

Cpl Carrot

[JAT]

My experience has led me to use the area fire technique. If you are that close and your guys are just not doing anything, have one of them area target "use explosives" command.

Also, I remember a post by a great person who filled me on the use explosives command (sorry, don't remember your name) and in the post he said that they would not toss if they were in a status other than 'ready/ok' I don't find this to be true as I've had squads throw sachels while cautious, alerted and even shaken.

I've done some experiments with blowing up houses, but don't remember exactly the numbers. Small light buildings can be blown up easily with just one sachel and only targeting close to the building. It's nice to see two of these buildings go up in smoke when a sachel is tossed in between them.

Conclusion: Add "area fire - use explosives" to your bag of tricks.

[lcm1947]

I just recently finished a game where my German opponent had squads within 40 meters of a Greyhound of mine that was also disabled and he couldn't get his men to fire on me either. They finally did however to my sorrow so I think like Cpl Carrot says they'll do it when the time seems right.

[Slappy]

I believe, based on little testing but much observing, the following:

35m is too far for infantry to effectively attack an AFV. Suqads are an abstraction and so is their location in CM. Your 20m and 15m squads are essentially 'touching' the AFV, making it possible to do the down and dirty attacking that will actually take down the vehicle. As mentioned in the manual, you can toss grenades in the direction of a tank all day and have little to no effect. Taking one down with grenades generally involves more direct means like forcing grenades into specific unpleasant spots on the tank (gun barrel, engine compartment, crew hatch) and this can only be done from rather close range.

Personally, I would advance the squad to a closer range (5-20m) where more of this can and will happen. Note however that the game graphics will show only what you see now (grenade lobbing). The grenade lobbing and AFV assaulting graphics are the same, but the mechanics in the background are very different at 10m and 40m.

[PlatCmdr]

Ok, thanks for the advice guys. I'm going to sneak my guys closer and see what happens. Would it also be helpful that their respective HQ to also have LOS to the tank in question to provide them guidance and initiative, or is the command line being intact not necessary for them to complete this task?

[Elmo]

If you order them to attack the vehicle then having the command line intact will speed up execution of the orders. The HQ does not need a LOS to the vehicle.

[Redwolf]

HQs are much more effective assaulting tanks with simple hand grenades.

[KanaljeFätter]

is the act of stuffing grenades into vulnerable spots on tanks when next to it modelled in the game, or is the effect 'basically' the same at 40m as at 5m? (except of course for a range modifier like the one used in firepower calculations) Or do the squads at 5m still toss the grenades game-mechanics-wise?

[manchildstein (ii)]

try the command, 'follow vehicle'... i think this works inside 40 meters... also if you have explosives other than grenades, the 'area fire with explosives' is a good one... just make the tank disappear with shift-v then plot the spot to attack underneath it, then turn tanks back on with shift-v again... unlike grenades though explosives have a range of about 20 meters or less...

[PlatCmdr]

See below :mad:

[ May 09, 2003, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: PlattCmdr ]

[PlatCmdr]

Great sugestion! I like that idea of removing the tank image via using "shift-v" and going for area fire on its footprint. That indeed may work. And if it doesn't, I say piss on these squads, and next time, I'm just going to have to rely on those Pioneer scrappers and their explosives.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by PlattCmdr:

Great sugestion! I like that idea of removing the tank image via using "shift-v" and going for area fire on its footprint. That indeed may work. And if it doesn't, I say piss on these squads, and next time, I'm just going to have to rely on those Pioneer scrappers and their explosives.

Flame throwers work good too, especally the longer range Soviet ones.

After Mid 1943 Soviet Tank hunter teams start getting the RPG grenade. Those things hurt just about any german tank there is.

Overall, I think that you must be at 30m or less for a rifle squad or Tank hunter team to use nades/satchels/molotovs on a tank.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Nippy:

They will throw grenades and potato mashers out to the 40ish range, but those are almost completely ineffective unless you give it the old "follow vehicle", or are at extremely close range.

[ May 25, 2003, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[Jagdwyrm]

I believe some sort of 'morale check' takes place based on many factors whether or not and when infantry will assault tanks.

Obviously more experienced infantry will help, under command with morale bonus, current suppression condition and probably whether or not squad has specific AT weapons or they are just taking a shot in the dark with grenades.

Also a good combat bonus will probably help success when they do decide to assault.

[BaD JoKe]

I have played lots of games where infantry tries to stop tanks using handgrenades and molotovs (hey, in CMBB we finns dont have much more else to work with!).

Effective range for handgrenades is less than 35 m. molotovs a bit more but the accuracy is the problem when closing 40m. Early Pzfausts are also almost useless. HQs seem to be better when attacking tanks.

It´s desperate situation where one tries to attack having only infantry, and only place you can go is past KV-1 on a open plain... Makes me just wonder how they did it for real???

[Chad Harrison]

Its best to have them within 30 m of the tank. And, maybe it just me, but I have seen more HQ units take out tanks with grenades than anyone else. It has happened so often that I move my HQ forward to finish the job.

Chad

[coe]

sometimes it's a matter of the luck of the draw...I had several veteran sturm squads against an immobilized T-34/85 (amazing that it's turret can't rotate)...the T-34/85 lasted about 10 turns despite the squads being 15-20 m away from it. NOw the squads of course didn't have anything but grenade bundles and individual grenades...there were numerous hits to no effect.

[JasonC]

Range for "use explosives" is 30m, not 20m.

All the fausts, German AT mine types, and Russian RPGs are effective if you can get the hit. Demo charges are extremely effective, with a minimum of immobilization on a hit and full KO the most common result. Era fausts need somewhat closer ranges, but all these are basically point blank weapons.

German rifle grenades are marginal against anything but light armor. Molotovs are below marginal, against anything but open topped vehicles (and not foolproof against them). Grenade bundles are reasonably effective, while the ordinary grenades are not. None of these types is a serious tank killer, though, unlike the demos, fausts, RPGs, and magnetic mines.

Before mid 1943, the way to get infantry AT ability as the Russians is not tank hunter teams but Pioneer squads. Those come in 2 squad, 3 squad, and 6 squad formations with 1, 1 and 3 HQs. You can spread them further using company HQs. Don't split the squads - the demos go with one half squad only and it gets reduced morale.

Two pioneer squads about 40m apart with an HQ centered and back a little creates a decent 100m wide infantry AT "block". Give them 30m, 180 degree covered arcs, or very short ones if you don't want the first infantry to trigger them. Hiding is optional, but it reduces spotting ability and reaction time.

2 full squads, in command, are much more likely to have one unsuppressed to deliver an AT attack at the critical moment when an enemy AFV is in range than anything alone, especially a small team. Infantry AT attacks rarely succeed if the attacker is targeted by any enemy weapon. Surprise or more attackers than enemy shooters are the ways they can succeed.

Around the same mid 1943 period the Germans get shreck teams (though initially at high rarity), which are miles better than tank hunters. Their problem tends to be first shot accuracy, especially from tree cover with obstructed lines of sight.

1 team can still cover an area 200-250m wide with reasonable accuracy. They also get the discrimination of a vehicle covered arc order to set AFV only ambushes at the right locations.

The inherent AT ability of German infantry is better than Russian molotovs, and their tank hunters better armed than Russian ones in 1942 and the per-schreck part of 1943. In the late war, their fausts have better range and kill chances than RPGs. But none of these really has high AT ability.

German pioneers are much better, with tons of demos (each small "squad" gets 2) and FTs, but expensive and still short ranged. They are a fine way to buy a lot of infantry AT in the pre-schreck era. Tank hunters give only a little.

The main problem with German pioneers tends to be their "command span". You get only 1 platoon HQ for 6 small squads and 3 FTs. You can get around this by assigning portions of the Pioneer squads to other company HQs, each commanding only 2-4. The FTs can go with any HQ. This also spreads their mine clearing ability to more routes, when you are attacking.

All leader bonuses help infantry AT attempts, in their own way - command to reposition rapidly to get the shot or stealth to hide until they are close, combat to hit rather than miss, and especially morale to resist suppression and actually deliver the attack.

I hope this helps.

[Guest Mike]

Last time I killed a tank with infantry it was an Italian squad that used an ordinary grenade vs a T34 at 10m range - it got a "hit" result and the crew bailed by the end of the turn.

that was the high point of the game....indeed it was virtually the only point of the game from my side!! lol

Grenades can be effective given the right dice roll!!

[Sarge Saunders]

Molotovs are a huge pain in the arse. Mainly because they are so ineffective and the AI seems to use them before grenades. I've killed Tigers with grenades. I've killed Stugs with grenades. Usually they abandon after immobilization and a few more grenade hits. My experience so far has been that HQs are slightly better at close tank assault with grenades. Not sure if this is actually modelled but has been true for me.

If you are going to go after a tank with regular infantry squads use ones with only grenades. You'll have better luck than with molotovs.

Now I just took out an opponent's KV-2 in 1941 with one of those Panzerwurfenminenkillemtanken armed tank hunters. Those can pack a serious punch!!

-Sarge