Timid JS2s

[Ogre]

I recently played an email game in which I used JS2s for the first time. I was very frustrated that I could not seem to get them to engage any targets more threatening than a halftrack without the JS2s throwing it in reverse to escape the confrontation, frequently turning sideways in the process and offering juicy flank shots to my opposition. I ended up losing 3 of 4 JS2s to a single Nashorn and my last one to a miraculous single shot from a Stug at over 700 meters. My armor tactics were sound. I used hull down positions, shoot & scoot and attacks from different directions. At one point I maneuvered into a flank shot position with one JS2 while the Nashorn engaged a second JS2 in hull down on a ridge. The flanking tank targeted the Nashorn and then much to my horror threw it in reverse without ever firing a shot. I've run numerous tests since then. I matched up 4 JS2s against 4 Panzer IVs on a wide open map and the Russians all went into reverse immediately, only one firing a parting shot, while the Germans calmly loaded and fired, never moving except to adjust thier hull facings.

I have no problem with the slow (and realistic) load times or the usual inaccuracy of the gun on the JS2, but what's with the timid behavior of these tanks, even against inferior enemy AFVs? From what I've read in books, this was a good tank greatly feared and respected by the Germans. In game terms, I can't see why. The only time I've seen it perform well is at very close ranges. Has anyone else noticed this?

[lassner.1]

There was a *sustained* discussion recently re why this happens in the game, but I do not remember the thread title. Try searching under "coward[ly] armor" or "IS2" for starters.

[Gpig]

Hmmm. Interesting.

You should search out the thread about su-122's reversing out of harms way from pzIV's. Someone will be able to help with search terms, soon. (It was a huge and much participated in thread.)

It covers a lot of what you're talking about.

But one thing that is different about your post is that the German vehicles don't seem to panic when faced with 122mm main guns. Only the Russian tanks seem to have a self preservation instinct.

Interesting.

Gpig

[Guest PondScum]

Summary: Don't leave your JS-2s sitting there in a hull-down position. Their reload times suck, and their crews get nervous about waiting around in full view of the enemy. Use shoot-and-scoot to pop up, take one shot, and then get back into cover so they can reload at their leisure.

[xerxes]

German tanks quickly pop smoke when they feel threatened. They wil reverse out of there also.

[Soddball]

What you're showing is a lack of understanding about the JS-2. That "lucky hit" that you describe from the StuG wasn't luck. In a recent PBEM game, I used three StuG's to carve my opponent's JS-2's to pieces.

The JS-2 doesn't have the reload speed or the accuracy to mix it with Tigers, Jagdpanthers, Nashorns, Panthers, StuGs or Marders. There have been several threads about this in the last few months, search the forums and you'll see that this issue was raised (quite rightly so, since it does seem odd) and dealt with.

[MikeyD]

The JS-2 is considered a heavy tank, but in fact it was in the same weight class as a 'meduim' Panther.

I recall BFC's reaction to the long thread on the topic. It boiled down to 'Those CMBB IS-2 tankers are better fighters than you are and aren't going to wait around for you to tell them to get themselves out of a jam." ...or something to that effect.

I believe someone also came up with official Soviet doctrine on confronting Panthers from 44 on. Basically, it boiled down to get off one shot, and if you miss bugger on out of there and call in artillery. By then the Russians didn't seem to be as fond of mass suicidal onrushes as they used to be.

[White Phosphorus]

Then why do the crews still back up even when they have the round loaded? This goes for T-34/85s. Overshoot, undershoot, reload, start moving MISS AGAIN since the shot was fired on the move, and get killed through the turret. Maybe it's just my experience but the tanks always seem to pick the worst decision. They should either drop down sooner or a bit later.

[Ogre]

Originally posted by Soddball:

What you're showing is a lack of understanding about the JS-2. That "lucky hit" that you describe from the StuG wasn't luck. In a recent PBEM game, I used three StuG's to carve my opponent's JS-2's to pieces.

The JS-2 doesn't have the reload speed or the accuracy to mix it with Tigers, Jagdpanthers, Nashorns, Panthers, StuGs or Marders. There have been several threads about this in the last few months, search the forums and you'll see that this issue was raised (quite rightly so, since it does seem odd) and dealt with.

[Ogre]

Originally posted by Soddball:

What you're showing is a lack of understanding about the JS-2. That "lucky hit" that you describe from the StuG wasn't luck. In a recent PBEM game, I used three StuG's to carve my opponent's JS-2's to pieces.

The JS-2 doesn't have the reload speed or the accuracy to mix it with Tigers, Jagdpanthers, Nashorns, Panthers, StuGs or Marders. There have been several threads about this in the last few months, search the forums and you'll see that this issue was raised (quite rightly so, since it does seem odd) and dealt with.

I appreciate the input, but my post concerned the constant reversing of JS2s versus almost any armored opposition, not whether or not they could handle a hit from a Stug or anything about their reload time. I clearly stated that I was aware of those factors and thought they were realistic. And I still think the kill from 700 meters by a 75mm gun was miraculous...I've seen a JS2 take three hits on the front armor from a Tiger at 120 meters with no more effect than to scratch the paint.

[manchildstein (ii)]

--And I still think the kill from 700 meters by a 75mm gun was miraculous...I've seen a JS2 take three hits on the front armor from a Tiger at 120 meters with no more effect than to scratch the paint. --

is there any chance that, against the tigers you were playing with a later model js2 and against the stug you were using an earlier model one?

[Ogre]

Originally posted by White Phosphorus:

Then why do the crews still back up even when they have the round loaded? This goes for T-34/85s. Overshoot, undershoot, reload, start moving MISS AGAIN since the shot was fired on the move, and get killed through the turret. Maybe it's just my experience but the tanks always seem to pick the worst decision. They should either drop down sooner or a bit later.

That is exactly what I mean. I ran quite a few tests to see how far this would go. I ran all of these tests on a small "pool table" map with no obstructions to LOS so the tanks could just fire away. Tests:

4 JS2 vs. 4 Nashorn

1 KOed Nashorn

4 KOed JS2s (2 regular, 2 extra crispy)

The JS2s reversed immediately.

4 T34/85 vs. 4 Nashorn

4 KOed Nashorns

2 KOed T34/85s

The T34s stood thier ground and returned fire.

6 T34/76 vs. 4 Nashorn

4 KOed Nashorns

3 KOed T34/76s

T34s stood ground and returned fire.

The moral of this story...don't buy JS2s for PBEM games. They cost more and perform less than T34s.

I ran quite a few more tests using different German AFVs, but the results were all generally similar to the above.

[Mick_Oz]

Originally posted by Ogre:

The moral of this story...don't buy JS2s for PBEM games. They cost more and perform less than T34s.

__

I have to agree with Ogre based on my own (extremely limited so far) experience with using the IS-2. The combination of slow reload, timidity and inaccurate targeting doesn't entice me to purchase them if I have a choice. The modelling may be historically accurate but in pure gaming terms, they kinda suck imho.

[MrNoobie]

I have to agree with Ogre based on my own (extremely limited so far) experience with using the IS-2. The combination of slow reload, timidity and inaccurate targeting doesn't entice me to purchase them if I have a choice. The modelling may be historically accurate but in pure gaming terms, they kinda suck imho

i agree

[Rob Murray]

I've also used the IS 2( early ) in several recent games with much the same result. Ohter tank crews ( ie. T-34 crews ) seem to be more aggressive but the IS 2 crews just want to hang back. Their lack of aggression gets them killed many times as well. They run like hell and expose themselves in doing so.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

OK. The $64 question. Is this behaviour of IS 2's typical of heavy tank crew doctrine during WWII when compared with tank crew doctrine for medium sized Soviet tanks?

When we have the answer to this then perhaps we might have some ammunition to take to BFC to consider making alterations to Soviet heavy tank behaviour.

Regards

Jim R.

[Lt Bull]

As mentioned above, this topic has been discussed before. For those that have not read the threads on this subject from last year, here they are:

Yellow livered IS2's

and

Retreating Monster Tanks revealed (monster pictures)

It might seem strange, but ultimately I think the low rate of fire of the big gunned Russian heavy tanks is the reason why they are "coded" to retreat whereas a T34 takes its chances and might slug it out.

Lt Bull

[Tarquelne]

And don't forget Monster Tanks Retreating #2 And Steve's List of Why the Tac AI tells tanks to retreat !

As the title indicates, it starts with a list from BFC Steve, which might be a good place to start delving into this... what, 32 page topic?

[Redwolf]

Two direct replies to things said in this thread (I don't wish to engage i a full discussion of this "feature").

the worst thing about the retreating is that the heavies often start retreating before shooting, then shooting on the move ruining their hit probablity or they don't fire at all, leaving to target which was in a good kill position already for somebody else or a new attack to kill.

Also, I was talking about a ISU-122, not a SU-122. The penetration stats of the ISU-122 leave no doubt that it is worth waiting to get the shot off.

Steve ended up labeling it as "it does the right thing too early". That strikes me as the same as somebody going straight over a red traffic light and claiming to the officer "I did the right thing, just too early".

[lassner.1]

I sincerely hope that those who have raised anew the question of JS2 behavior will read the *exhaustive* threads to which Lt. Bull and Tarqulene have provided links.

[MikeyD]

I think the main culprit may be the slow reload rate in IS-2s. A T34 can merrily pump out shells all day long (and eventually hit something). The IS-2's got to sit there and wait for the virtual loader to manhandle the virtual separate ammo rounds. That one fact might make all the difference in the different crew reactions.

[YankeeDog]

IIRC, one of the more useful pieces of information from the previous threads (which I did read) on this topic was that if you order an IS-series vehicle to SHOOT AND SCOOT, it is MUCH more likely to stop, take a good shot while standing still, and then get back to safety. It's when you order the IS to just HUNT or MOVE up onto a ridgeline or something that you are likely to see it back down without taking a shot at all, or take a low percentage shot while already reversing back into defilade.

Realistic? I have no idea. Useful when I'm playing CM? Very.

Cheers,

YD

[jgdpzr]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I think the main culprit may be the slow reload rate in IS-2s. A T34 can merrily pump out shells all day long (and eventually hit something). The IS-2's got to sit there and wait for the virtual loader to manhandle the virtual separate ammo rounds. That one fact might make all the difference in the different crew reactions.

I agree, and I think it goes one step further. I believe the retreat behavior is affected by several factors, one of the most critical being chance to hit. A major consideration in this factor is ROF (because of bracketing). Because of the pitiful ROF of the IS-II, the chance to hit within a short period of time is then further decreased since it takes so much longer to adjust fire. These factors add up to make it clear that in many combat situations the AI crew is going to err on the side of self-preservation, causing what many consider to be mistaken retreats.

Regarding the general useage of the IS-II, it is clear that Soviet doctrine stressed its utilization in the anti-personnel and anti-fortification roles. IOW, It was their heavy assault tank. I've seen snippets (sorry can't quote or even remember where I read this) that suggested its use in the anti-tank role should be limited to long ranged fire, engaging targets frontally so as to use its thick frontal armour to mitigate the ponderous ROF. Closer engagements were usually the product of desperation, or tactical error, rather than the doctrine prescribed norm.

Finally, I have discovered (others have as well) that shoot-n-scoot tactics are extremely useful with this vehicle since this will negate some of the problems many have noted. In one of the threads referenced previously, Redwolf was particularly disturbed how the vehicle will sometimes back off without even firing a chambered round. Shoot-n-scoot will avoid this because you are giving the ai a simple, clear order that it can complete without being overridden by self-preservation.

Bottom line, the IS-II's ROF forces some restrictions on it's utility in the general AT role. I'm not going to open Pandora's box on whether or not this is historically accurate, as that horse has been thoroughly pulverized. For the sake of the game, learn to deal with its limitations and you will find it to be a potent AFV, even against the nastiest of armoured adversaries.

[Redwolf]

None of this is an excuse for starting the backward move before the first shot when youhave hit probablities about 30% and armor penetration with vast overkill.

Also, the command that exposed the retreat most often for me was seek-hulldown (not hunt or move as others int his thread indicated). Obviously, if you replace it with shoot-and-scoot you don't necessarily end up in hulldown while taking the shot.

[Ogre]

Originally posted by lassner:

I sincerely hope that those who have raised anew the question of JS2 behavior will read the *exhaustive* threads to which Lt. Bull and Tarqulene have provided links.

Sorry guys, I did'nt mean to beat a dead horse, but I'm new on this forum and I was unaware that this problem had been covered before. I appreciate all your input and I have now checked out the earlier posts concerning IS2s. Thanks!