Timid JS2s

[Ogre]

Originally posted by jgdpzr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeyD:

I think the main culprit may be the slow reload rate in IS-2s. A T34 can merrily pump out shells all day long (and eventually hit something). The IS-2's got to sit there and wait for the virtual loader to manhandle the virtual separate ammo rounds. That one fact might make all the difference in the different crew reactions.

I agree, and I think it goes one step further. I believe the retreat behavior is affected by several factors, one of the most critical being chance to hit. A major consideration in this factor is ROF (because of bracketing). Because of the pitiful ROF of the IS-II, the chance to hit within a short period of time is then further decreased since it takes so much longer to adjust fire. These factors add up to make it clear that in many combat situations the AI crew is going to err on the side of self-preservation, causing what many consider to be mistaken retreats.

Regarding the general useage of the IS-II, it is clear that Soviet doctrine stressed its utilization in the anti-personnel and anti-fortification roles. IOW, It was their heavy assault tank. I've seen snippets (sorry can't quote or even remember where I read this) that suggested its use in the anti-tank role should be limited to long ranged fire, engaging targets frontally so as to use its thick frontal armour to mitigate the ponderous ROF. Closer engagements were usually the product of desperation, or tactical error, rather than the doctrine prescribed norm.

Finally, I have discovered (others have as well) that shoot-n-scoot tactics are extremely useful with this vehicle since this will negate some of the problems many have noted. In one of the threads referenced previously, Redwolf was particularly disturbed how the vehicle will sometimes back off without even firing a chambered round. Shoot-n-scoot will avoid this because you are giving the ai a simple, clear order that it can complete without being overridden by self-preservation.

Bottom line, the IS-II's ROF forces some restrictions on it's utility in the general AT role. I'm not going to open Pandora's box on whether or not this is historically accurate, as that horse has been thoroughly pulverized. For the sake of the game, learn to deal with its limitations and you will find it to be a potent AFV, even against the nastiest of armoured adversaries.</font>

[jgdpzr]

You are most welcome. If you want to get your fill of handling the IS-II, try jeagermeister on the CD. I had very good fortune using them with shoot-n-scoot tactics (en masse-that's critical) in that battle.

Just remember that even though the gun of the IS-II is capable (sometimes, against the heavy panzers, it's about the only sufficient gun on the field) of duking it out with tanks, that's not its primary role.

[PatWilson]

I had an interesting experience with JSIIs. In a scenario I had several of them. At one point three engaged a Panther. Despite having the terrain to hide in, they actually stood their ground and KO'd the Panther. I lost one of them. Based on this it looks like they will hang in there if ciscumstances allow for reasonable odds of success.

I must say that I would prefer a couple of T34/85's to an ISII for use against tanks, but that big 122mm is nice for taking out strong points.

[lassner.1]

Ogre,

I am glad to see that you checked them out. I just wanted to make sure that if this debate was going to start again it did not rehash that which had already been debated. I am sure that everyone on this board would be happy to continue the debate if there are points that you do not think have been well covered.

Welcome!

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Also, the command that exposed the retreat most often for me was seek-hulldown (not hunt or move as others int his thread indicated). Obviously, if you replace it with shoot-and-scoot you don't necessarily end up in hulldown while taking the shot.

The seek hulldown command uses the behaviour of the move command according to BFC. This means that a tank using this command does not expect to have enemy contact before it has completed the command. It also means that the tank is unlikely to fire while using this command. And moving units are more likely to get nervous when they are under fire.

Considering this, you really shouldn't be surprised if the TacAI overrides a seek hulldown order and reverses back out of LOS when your tank is targeted by an enemy tank.

Dschugaschwili

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

Also, the command that exposed the retreat most often for me was seek-hulldown (not hunt or move as others int his thread indicated). Obviously, if you replace it with shoot-and-scoot you don't necessarily end up in hulldown while taking the shot.

The seek hulldown command uses the behaviour of the move command according to BFC. This means that a tank using this command does not expect to have enemy contact before it has completed the command. It also means that the tank is unlikely to fire while using this command. And moving units are more likely to get nervous when they are under fire.

Considering this, you really shouldn't be surprised if the TacAI overrides a seek hulldown order and reverses back out of LOS when your tank is targeted by an enemy tank.

Dschugaschwili</font>