Redwolf Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 It just occured to me that there is a workaround against this CMBB 1.03 bug. The bug is that if you have fortifications worth 120 points then the attackers starts out with 120 kill points. You can use the Axis bonus that you can give in the second screen of the scenario editor parameters selection. If Axis is defender and has 100 points of fortifications, then you give an Axis bonus of +100 points. If Allies is defender, then you give an Axis bonus of -100 points. Note however that doing this plays with the balance between flags and knockout points. But only in the case that Axis defends. In the Allied defender case the error just goes away. In teh Axis defender case both sides gain points to start from, so you should place additional flags worth exactly as much as the two times the fortifications value (or in other words, worth as much as fortifications and the bonus you gave together). Also note that TRPs are included in this, they count as casulties. As the attacker often has TRPs you might watch out for this. If both sides have fortifications (or the attacker has TRPs) then you give a bonus only for the different in fortification points. If your scenario has nothing but fortifications for both sides then you are designing an interesting scenario [ March 09, 2004, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 redwolf "If your scenario has nothing but fortifications for both sides then you are designing an interesting scenario" LOL 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 You could actually play something halfway intelligent that way. The trick is that you have to place your gun pillboxes and TRPs for the gun pillboxes so that you can kill all the opponents' pillboxes from your setup position with the ammunition you have. If none of the opponents manages to do that it is a draw. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Yes, the forgotten Axis bonus. Problem solved very nicely. This makes me happy. Treeburst155 out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thin Red Line Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Very elegant solution ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Originally posted by redwolf: It just occured to me that there is a workaround against this CMBB 1.03 bug. The bug is that if you have fortifications worth 120 points then the attackers starts out with 120 kill points. You can use the Axis bonus that you can give in the second screen of the scenario editor parameters selection. If Axis is defender and has 100 points of fortifications, then you give an Axis bonus of +100 points. If Allies is defender, then you give an Axis bonus of -100 points. Note however that doing this plays with the balance between flags and knockout points. But only in the case that Axis defends. In the Allied defender case the error just goes away. In teh Axis defender case both sides gain points to start from, so you should place additional flags worth exactly as much as the two times the fortifications value (or in other words, worth as much as fortifications and the bonus you gave together). Hmm, isn't gameplay still (adversely) affected? If I'm the attacker, I still have no incentive to knockout fortifications, rather than bypass them, if possible. If it is not possible to bypass the fortifications, as the attacker I get no "credit" for taking them out, as all of my "credit" for taking them out has now been offset by the bonus set by the editor. Doesn't this solution simply shift the penalty from the owner of the fortifications to the side without fortifications? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 Yes, killing bunkers is useless victory-point wise since they count as killed to start from. I would assume you can capture the crew for some extra points, though. This is no big issue since CM bunkers and pillboxes are useless, unrealistic and overpriced anyway, IMHO. But at least you have a decent workaround for trenches, TRPs, mines and barbed wire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Originally posted by redwolf: Yes, killing bunkers is useless victory-point wise since they count as killed to start from. I would assume you can capture the crew for some extra points, though. This is no big issue since CM bunkers and pillboxes are useless, unrealistic and overpriced anyway, IMHO. But at least you have a decent workaround for trenches, TRPs, mines and barbed wire. ??? I thought bunkers give kill points... I had a river crossing once where I reached 40% victory level before I even set a foot on the bridges. I just killed any bunker on the other side that opened up. Used 20mm so I don't expect lots of crew casualties. IIRC only wire, mines and road blocks etc. are buggy. Dead stuff that is dead in the end. Intact bunkers are intact. Example: Axis 1000 pts (kills+VL) + 100 pts (bonus) Allies 1000 pts + 100 pts from fortifications bug Draw. Ok. Axis 500 pts (kills+VL) + 500 pts (bonus) Allies 2500 pts (kills + VL) + 500 pts (from fortifications bug) 3:1, 75%:25% Major victory... but it should read Axis 500 pts (kills+VL) Allies 2500 pts (kills + VL) 83%:17% Total victory! Am I wrong here? But it does work for allied fortifications! ... just can't resist: Guess who wrote "Give the Germans a points bonus to correct the points for "dead" fortifications bug." on Chir river scenario thread and when... Gruß Joachim [ March 10, 2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Joachim ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 It is a workaround, although the victory ratios remain distorted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Yes, the victory level is distorted in the case of German fortifications; but, you can reduce or eliminate this distortion by increasing total VL value on the map until you get back to the original ratio (VL points to Force points). Redwolf mentioned this in his first post. This isn't a perfect solution to the distortion; but it will help. I sure wish you guys who understand CM scoring, who talk about "distortion of victory levels", would help me out in my CMAK threads. I'm trying to get designers to understand that they need to have more than a few hundred VL points on the map in the larger battles. Redwolf has tried in the past to no avail. I don't think designers understand the relationship between VL points and casualty points, and how this relationship affects the score. Joachim, Once again I meet you in a thread. Not only do we like the same types of scenarios, we both have an appreciation for how the scoring system works. We really should do some PBEM sometime. One of us picks the scenario AND edits the VL values and the time limit appropriately (because these things are almost always screwed up), the other picks his side. I'm always ready for a nice, giant PBEM. So what if it takes a year to play. Treeburst155 out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 I've been working on my first operation. In it there are a noteworthy amount of fortifications for the Soviet side. But in operation preferences there doesn't seem to be any possibility to set bonus points. So am I screwed? Also, something that I hadn't noticed earlier when playing operations, is that apparently in the final AAR points are not displayed, only the losses and the victory level. This makes it impossible for players to manually recalculate the victory level. :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted March 20, 2004 Author Share Posted March 20, 2004 Originally posted by Sergei: Also, something that I hadn't noticed earlier when playing operations, is that apparently in the final AAR points are not displayed, only the losses and the victory level. This makes it impossible for players to manually recalculate the victory level. :mad: If there are neutral flags you can probably adapt my method I used to compute out casulty points in CMBO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Hmm. Actually, after doing a test, it seems to me that this bug doesn't show up in operations. Could someone else confirm this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Originally posted by Treeburst155: I don't think designers understand the relationship between VL points and casualty points, and how this relationship affects the score. Pretty easy - if there are only a few VLs, then casualties are what matters. I fear the main problem is that those players that understand the game mechanics are either a league of their own - ie they only play themselves in a non-ladder environment where the "social element" in the mail or testing scenarios is more important than the result. Only a few good desginers cater to this group. This group values casualties over ground seized and thus VLs are less important. If you look at several of Cory Runyan's scen at the kessel, you will note that in several scenarios he uses bonus points or has only a few VLs to make casualties the top priority. The other group is what I call "mainstream": Small QBs with picked forces. Small QBs mean important VLs. Almost any loss is justified to take or hold a VL. And your theory is not important anymore. Joachim, Once again I meet you in a thread. Not only do we like the same types of scenarios, we both have an appreciation for how the scoring system works. We really should do some PBEM sometime. One of us picks the scenario AND edits the VL values and the time limit appropriately (because these things are almost always screwed up), the other picks his side. I'm always ready for a nice, giant PBEM. So what if it takes a year to play. Treeburst155 out. A current scen I am doing tries another approach. There are lots of VLs. The axis attacker needs to press his advance but still conserve his forces to meet the counterattack. Time and casualties count. For the Allied defender, ground, time and casualties are important as if his initial forces hold out long enough the Axis will not be able to deploy to meet the reinforcements. Plus the general setting stresses the importance of the ground. The axis attacker needs to buy time in the operational scale. The allied defender must prevent parts of his (off map) forces getting cut off. 15 big VLs are met by regimental sized KGs. 70+ turns on 3.6x3.52 km of desert sand. Time to compute turns: up to 2 hours. You asked for it, you get it... Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 So, which items in the "fortifications" category are NOT part of the bug? Is the problem limited to only wire, mines and road blocks? This would make sense. Treeburst155 out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Originally posted by Treeburst155: So, which items in the "fortifications" category are NOT part of the bug? Is the problem limited to only wire, mines and road blocks? This would make sense. Treeburst155 out. IIRC any unmanned fortifications qualitfy. So add TRPs to your list. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Ah yes, the TRPs. I forgot about those. Thanks. This whole issue isn't too major, especially if the Allies have the forts. If the Germans have lots of wire, mines, TRPs and road blocks we get distorted levels of victory; but I think increasing VL value could help with this. Such scenarios just require a bit more thought when it comes to the VL values. Treeburst155 out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 What about trenches? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Yeah, what about trenches? I forgot about them. I would assume they are part of the bug because they are not manned automatically like bunkers and pillboxes, and aircraft. A trench is similar to a roadblock. So, we have mines, wire, roadblocks, TRPs, and trenches. Treeburst155 out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Bumping for the erstwhile participants in the King of the Hill design contest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=000249 And apparently fixed in CMAK. *whew* 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhu Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 There is another solution also - even for Quick Battles: 1., Save the first turn, before anything happens. 2., After the battle load this save and.. a, if you are the attacker, than make a Surrender, and look at, how much casualties you made - theese are the points, you need to subtract from your end game's overall points to recalculate the battle outcome. b., if you are the defender, set all your units to the edge of the map and march them out of the map. (it is important, that you exit all your troops in one turn, because, if a few unit left there, there will be in next turn an automatic surrender, and they will be captured) After that, you can see, how much casualties the attacker made - theese are the points, you need to subtract from your end game's overall points to recalculate the battle outcome. Remember: 55:45% Draw 56:44% Minor Victory 64:36% Tactical Victory 72:28% Major Victory 84-16% Total Victory [ January 16, 2007, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: uhu ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 DON'T COUNT TRENCHES, BUNKERS AND PILL BOXES !!!! These three are not calculated in when the AI determines the points with the bug... 'kay? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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