T-34 series suck?

[Omni-Max]

I'm playing version 1.03...

It seems like whenever I get any version of the T-34 in battle, at ranges from 150-500m, it always misses the first five shots.

I recall a QB I played where I had bought a platoon of three T-34/85 (the ones with a intercom/radio inside, I think) and proceeded to prowl them up on this hill in line formation. Lo' and behold, a german tank in the distance (it was a Hezter or Nashhorn I believe, 75mm) all three T-34/85s stop and shoot! (my T-34s and this vehicle were of the same rank, veteran)

Miss, miss, miss.

The vehicle fires back. Hit. KO'ed.

My T-34s reload. Two shots from two tanks fired.

Misses.

The german vehicle fires back again. Hit. KO'ed.

One T-34 left, reload, fire, miss.

German vehicle fires back, Hit. KO'ed.

I furiously surrender and quit the game.

"How can..." I reasoned "...a tank, of any quality, miss so much?"

I tried searching on Google for documents about T-34 optics. It's common knowledge the german tank optics are excellent (Zeiss, among other things).

But the object of tank optics was way too obscure to find anything, execpt bonafide historians praising panther and tiger optics, almost borderline fellatio.

Now imagine if I was playing another human on a medium 700-1000 point map. The map is so small that in such a way, it is possible, my tanks won't have any cover on any possible path. That one strategically placed german tank or gun will destroy all my armor, since they literally can't hit the broad side of a barn.

I know someone will come to this thread saying "LOL BUT THE T-34 WAS EASIER TO PRODUCE AT A LOWER QUALITY!!!11"

Yeah? Well, in CMBB they barely cost

any less than the german tanks. I saved 30 points.

What am I going to do with 30 points? :confused:

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Not to put to fine a point to it, but it is all about numbers. Play that 3v1 several times and, more often than not, the Russian's will have at least 1 T-34 survive. Especially since both sides had the same crew quality.

A recent turn in a pbem I had is more typical with better numbers. 3 Nashorns hit hull down positions on a ridge with 10 T-34's between 800 and 1000m. Thanks to borg spotting all the T-34's open up immediately. By the end of the turn each Nashorn had killed at least 1 T-34 and was, itself, a burning pyre.

Sometimes, you're the windshield, sometimes, you're the bug. Keep at it.

[Other Means]

Did you have the T34's on "hunt"? That makes sure that they stop when they see a threat and so gives the best chance for a kill.

I share your frustration BTW and can well believe it happened.

[Peregrine]

Things that appear crappy can happen. My experiences with nashorns are not that happy.

I have a suggestion regarding your method of attack. If it was a nashorn it is turretless so unless it is directly facing your tanks at will take time to rotate in place before it can bring its gun to bear.

I obviously don't have the full picture of the map you were playing on but for simple 3v1 like you described your tanks should be well spread out.

That way even if it gets a kill the nashorn will have a slow (agonisingly slow if it is your own assault gun) to rotate in place each time it needs to engage a new target. This should result in your surviving tanks getting at least 2 or 3 shots off for each shot the nashorn returns resulting in a much better chance of a kill.

Another thing to do if the t34s are spread out would be to shoot n scoot one that isnt in the nashorn's direct line of fire (say the "left" one). The nashorn will probably turn to engage the "left" t34 when it appears (unless it has a covered arcs restricting it). By the time it turns the "left" t34 is scooting out of view and the "right" t34 is performing a shoot n scoot of its own. The right will then get a shot (maybe flank) with a better chance of a hit. The ideal result is "t34" left takes one shot (low percentage) and the "right" t34 get a second higher percentage shot without the nashorn firing at either t34s in reply.

[Omni-Max]

Okay, I just conducted some tests.

In the beginning I was testing german medium tanks against various russian ones.

The test results were varied, segmented, inconsistant.

I found that giving orders to your crew is very important. When I was first doing the tests, I would not tell all the tanks to fire at the AI, and the AI would always fire first. Telling your men to engage, they will take that order straight-away. If not, I suppose the game simulates the tank commander fiddling around deciding what to do next.

The heavy tank tests I did were rather interesting.

In about mid-1944 2x T-34/85 cost about the same as the cheapest Tiger. Sometimes three.

At around 500m the %tohit was 49-53 and the kill anywhere from low to fair (depending on what direction the Tiger had exposed)

They would miss. A lot.

I found that the SU/ISU-152 isn't really an assault gun. This is a lie. If the '152 was a superhero, it would be Superman. It's green kryptonite would be extreme reload times due to having such damn large caliber ammunition and a maximum ammo storage of twenty (20) shells.

It's red kryptonite would be the exact reason of the weakness: giant bore size.

The 152 series had a avg. %tohit at 57 and a Very Good kill chance at around 500m! It wouldn't surprise me if it had a pretty good chance to destroy a Tiger with the HE ammunition on a direct hit, either, with a blast rating of 330-something.

But looking at the Tiger's penetration compared to the '152, the 152 only had a 40 point gain at 100m /0 degree. The Russians really had a cliche for a high velocity, 88mm, good optic tank hunter, but alas, it was really never met.

But 500m is pretty close, relative to a Tiger I. Looking at the penetration values, it gets 100mm penetration at 2000m/0 degree. Real life reports that it wasn't uncommon for a Tiger to get first shot hit at 1000m! But the first shot hit at this range, is no doubt, on still targets. The error of one degree at 10m is like 7m and thats just on one axis.

[Omni-Max]

Originally posted by Peregrine:

By the time it turns the "left" t34 is scooting out of view and the "right" t34 is performing a shoot n scoot of its own. The right will then get a shot (maybe flank) with a better chance of a hit. The ideal result is "t34" left takes one shot (low percentage) and the "right" t34 get a second higher percentage shot without the nashorn firing at either t34s in reply.

Yeah, that is a good strategy, however you're still held to the whims of chance that the QB map will allow you to do this.

Sometimes the terrain is crappy. I mean, really, really, bad. Patches of rough and deep woods, everywhere.

But I think there are some german tanks that preform just as good at the Nashhorn, and their gun isn't even hull mounted. I suppose a T-34/85 could shoot and scoot before a Tiger turned it's turret and got the order to fire.

[MikeyD]

A sure-fire way to increase the T34's first hit probability is to play as Germans! Generally I've been quite happy with the T-34-85, especially late war when Russian experience levels have caught up with the Germans (Russians take a noticable competency hit in experience levels through '42). Still, a measley Lend-Lease Sherman seems like an überweapon compared to the 76mm gun T34s. The best chance for a first round hit is for your tank to be sitting stationary with a cover arc and the enemy blunders into it.

Russian optics were generally considered mediocre (roughly on par with early production Shermans in CMAK) and the commander/gunnner combo crew position left a lot to be desired.

[junk2drive]

My advice, get CMAK. Then you can have the same fun watching your Shermans burn.

Allied tanks in CM are for infantry support, not for head to head with German tanks. Or so I am starting to think.

[Jack Carr]

Originally posted by Peregrine:

... Another thing to do if the t34s are spread out would be to shoot n scoot ...

I agree. This is the best way to use Russian armor. Spot the panzer first and then "Shoot n Scoot" it to death.

I often play 1500 point battles against the AI selecting one German tank, usually a Panther or Tiger against 12-15 T-34/85's and IS-2 mix. Even the AI handles German armor in this way. Well orchestrated shoot n scoot. Three tanks shoot n scoot forcing the German to take aim as quickly as possible. The panzer may get off a shot but the Russians will get off three, hopefully knocking out or disabling the German. On the next turn another T-35/85 joins the shoot n scoot fray until the German tank is being hit every round.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

My advice, get CMAK. Then you can have the same fun watching your Shermans burn.

Allied tanks in CM are for infantry support, not for head to head with German tanks. Or so I am starting to think.

Then you really ought to play late 45 CW. Seeing a 75/L48 bounce off a Churchill really makes your day. That means you can take care of all the StuG's and PzIV's - they even get cower which is fun to see for the allied player. That means your opponent has to bring out his kitties.

Achilles in overwatch can take out any uber cats and you can win the armour war for a change. It takes some rock-paper-scissors type handling but it's all part of the fun.

Also, you generally end up with at least a Churchill left and their MG ammo never runs out.

[SpitfireXI]

I do use on occasion the spread out and shoot method, but I find it always goes bad when you bump into the german AT gun or the other tank.

[Code13]

All these tips and tricks are fine but it still doesnt get away from the fact that the Germans clearly developed some sort of miracle armour that repelled T34 shells.

[MikeyD]

Try playing VERY late war. Pick up a couple T44s. 90mm bow armor sloped at 60 degrees (but still using T34 polygons, which will confound your opponenet!). I'd also suggest the mighty SU-100 but I don't recall ever seeing one of those actally hit anything before dying.

And about German miracle armor, lets not forget the ubquitous PzIV with its 50mm turret front. A good use for Lend-Lease Stuarts with their quick-fire 37mm! Ouch!

[Omni-Max]

Now see, I don't understand.

I don't have a problem as allies in CMAK as long as I have one M10 GMC. The GMC will usually take out all, if not 80-90% of all ubercats and then I send in the sherman and stuarts to help mop up with the infantry.

The M10 GMC hits consistantly and with reasonable force.

[Pzman]

The SU-100, oh I love that beast for KingTiger killing! When playing Russian armor against German tanks, think ambush, ambush, ambush! Also, always have that three to one raito when fighting them. One on the right, one in front, and one to the left, and even better one to the rear.

[Wicky]

If the terrain is crappy try also considering buying tank hunters, sharpshooters, engineers to footslog some mischief into the fray.

Read the recent ROW tournament AARs of Wet Triangle reports to get the idea

Originally posted by Omni-Max:

[Zalgiris 1410]

T-34s are good, in fact very bloody good, early in the war. Especially in the period 41-42 before the appairance of Tigers. The Germans don't have Pz III Specials until Dec 41, Pz IV Specials until March 42 and Stug III Specials until then either. The Tiger and later the Panther were the response to the gap between the early disparity that the Panzers faced against the T-34 and the KV. Later the Russians countered with SU-122, the IS and ISUs while the Germans responded with the Tiger II-King Tiger. It has to be understood with these terms in mind. It has to do with the timeframe and the armour development race.

[ July 14, 2005, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[MikeyD]

Playing devil's advocate here: The T34 and 75mm Sherman gun are sometimes considered the best guns of the war... if you DON'T take tank vs tank actions into account. Superior infantry support weapons with excellent HE. By comparison the Panther gun and Firefly's 17 pdr had awful HE rounds. And the Churchill's 95mm howitzer had truely horrible accuracy.

[annihilate_this_week]

yea i still want to belive the t-34 i undermodeled. so is the PTRD

[JasonC]

"later the Russians countered with SU-122"

Countered what, spitballs? lol. Methinks you wanted to say SU-152 or ISUs. The SU-122 is a pure SPA item, no SPAT component involved. It chucks sizeable HE from a moving chassis instead of chucking it from a towed howitzer. It is comparable to a Wespe, not an answer to Tigers.

[JasonC]

Um Wicky, first in the Wet Triangle AARs it is the Germans who have all the tank hunters - and the Panthers. Second, in the two I've read the German infantry got one tank apiece, out of 15 on the Russian side and with very heavy losses to the THs and infantry. The actual outcome turns unsurprisingly on whether 3 Panthers beat 15 T-34s and Shermans, or the reverse. In one AAR they do, losing 2 while killing 14. In the other the Panthers are all KOed after taking out about a half dozen Russians. Not a good example.

If you want to counter German heavy tanks and particularly Panthers as the Russians, your single best bet is a Sturmovik, standard 23mm variety. While the bombs and rockets are likely to miss (may hurt nearby infantry, though), the cannons are (1) extremely accurate (2) get to fire twice on each strafing pass (3) can immobilize with track hits and get side, rear, or top penetrations (4) can make up to 6 passes, depending on enemy AA. While they have some tendency to be distracted by halftracks and such, no other item combines a cost less than or equal to a single German ubertank with the potentially immobilize or kill several of them, with complete impunity.

The next best weapon is the AT minefield, hidden variety. Again because the ubertanks themselves can't do anything to them. Also because they are cheap enough to get effective coverage, and thereby potentially take out several expensive tanks for limit cost. You can take up to 20 of them in some fights, realistically. Don't waste them all in a single string, that is likely to take out only one tank but then be avoided for the rest of the battle. Instead scatter and layer them, paying particular attention to routes through impassible terrain obstacles, roads in the ground is wet (to promote bogging or hits), and the approaches to spots with good LOS over the defense. Their only real drawbacks are (1) not being able to place them far enough forward due to small defender set up zones, and (2) not being available on the attack.

After those comes the 57mm ATG. It is able to penetrate Panther turret fronts and sides, and Tigers any aspect, at reasonable ranges, and it is stealthy enough to actually get the shots. The best distance is under 400m and limited behind armor effect can be a drawback. Keyholing helps against the replies. These cost only a third of what ubertanks cost with rariety off, half what they cost even with rariety premiums. And in the right circumstances can trade for them 1 for 1. You can even use them when attacking, if you take an MG carrier, M3 scout car, or jeep to reposition them. Making for the backside of woods and manhandling into firing position, well after infantry has spotted a beastie somewhere.

Next comes the SU-152, available early enough and with a potent enough shell. The problem is hitting with the first round or two. Rate of fire and lack of armor sufficient to deal with the ubertank's massive guns means you kill them right away or die trying, typically. Use a pair of them, shooting and scooting to get back in cover while reloading. A pair is much more likely to have one get a hit. Use an initial angle they aren't facing, and go after a single ubertank at a time. These will also mess up infantry if they live. Don't let the small ammo load fool you - 4 AP is about all they will fire, and the HE load will wipe out everything fired at with 1-2 shots apiece.

With rariety off, another useful item in late 1943 in particular is the T-34/57. Much higher rate of fire than the previous, same ability to penetrate as the towed 57 (better than LL 57s incidentally). Better at killing StuGs than Tigers, but will do the job if close enough. Much faster than the LL 57s, too.

Don't take SU-85s, their ammo is undermodeled and makes them useless in 1943, the only period to prefer them to T-34/85s. Use SU-152s or T-34/57s instead. Don't take 85mm AA, the same applies to them. They were used historically in an AT role from Kursk on, but won't work as advertized with the ammo modeling the game has. Use 57mm ATGs instead.

In 1944, you can take T-34/85s. Those deal with StuGs, Panzer IVs, guns and infantry. They are distinctly underpowered against ubers, but under 600m or so can punch through the Panther turret front. It just isn't worth dueling them because you lose so many yourself. They work fine as bushwackers KOing them from a blind side, though.

As for infantry AT, range makes it marginal against humans. The best are the pioneers with their demo charges. The late war THs are OK with RPGs, but molotovs are all you get early and those are useless. The demo charges on the other hand will immobilize or kill even the heaviest tank, and will actually be used if they come within 30m of an unsuppressed pioneer squad. Take a company of them and use them in 2 squad sections, the company HQ commanding the center one. Place the squads about 50m apart with their HQ between them and slightly back. Each group covers 100m that way, and the whole group can cover 300m, more with terrain obstacles incorporated. For less than the price of one ubertank that is a reasonable asset, and they can work a bit against infantry afterward.

[Guest Mike]

Jason the SU-122 is in no way comparable to the Wespe!!

Thje 122mm howitzer had limited elevation in this chassis so was pretty useless for indirect fire - indeeed all the heavy SU's were much used for direct HE support rathe than as "simply" more mobile mounts for field howitzers for indirect fire.

Now it certainly wasn't a great tank killer for sure, but it certainly wasn't a Wespe-equivalent (or hummel) either!!

[MikeyD]

I tend to get my SU-122 and ISU-122 mixed up.

The SU-122 was that embedded short howitzer in the T34 hull. I can sort'a see how its more-or-less equivalent to the Sherman(105) - except that howitzer's in a rotating turret, or the early shor-barreled Stug - except that gun's a measley 75. all were close infantry support weapons. The Russian equivalent to the Wespe would be the SU-76 - except the SU-76 had the smaller gun. That was mobile artillery.

ISU-122 was the big mother on the IS-2 chassis. They started installing the 122 gun when they couldn't increase production on the big 152 weapon. That's roughly equivalent to JadgPanter. ISU-122 really was mostly meant for infantry support but they took some pride in their ability to kill Panthers.

[Guest Mike]

Yes - except the Su-76 wasn't artillery eitehr - none of the Russian SU's were "artillery" in the normal indirect fire sense until the SU-122 & 152's of the late 70's/early 80's.

The Su-76 was actually intended to be a tank killer along the lines of the Marder series - but the gun wasn't good enough and it was relegated to infantry support - where it did a jolly good job AFAIK.

The equivalent of the SU-122 is the StuH I think - the 105mm howitzer armed Stugs.

The SU-122 was indeed on the T34 chassis, and the ISU's were on the IS chassis, but jsut to confuse things the SU-152 was on the KV Chassis - which of course was developed into the IS series!

There was no SU-122 version of the SU-152 - ie there was no 122m gun maounted on the KV chassis.

See http://www.battlefield.ru/specific2.html

[Zalgiris 1410]

My appologies JasonC I stand corrected, I really did mean something better than the SU-122 as a counter to Ubercats. Along with MikeyD I also confuse it with the ISU-122, but I was thinking of the SU-152 as the best initial response in the Soviet AFV arsenal to kill Ubercats, IMHO. I think we can all agree on that?

Thanks (JasonC) also for your instructive second follow up post clarifying the uses of Sturmoviks, AT mines, 57mm ATGs, T-34/57s, T34/85s, the SU-152s and engineers with their demo charges. Good post. (I like SU-100s and IS-2 44s myself)

That said I agree with Mike that the SUs and ISUs were Assult Guns come Tank Destroyers and not Self Propelled (long range indirect fire) Artillery. I think of the SU-122 as equivalent to or actually falling between the 105mm Stug H and the 150mm Brumbar, simply as HE chundering close infantry support Assualt Guns.

As MikeyD points out only the SU-76 should be considered as SPA, its so vulnerable it has to stay back. I feel that SPAs on the map in CM game terms are forced to behave more like Assualt Guns because of the need for direct spotting to targets and thereby it is easy to confuse their role. If you want to depict indirect supporting fire from an SP battery then you have to take it in the form of off map artillery.

PS: If you are playing with good AFVs I advise getting some AAGs especially of 37mm cal to deter or disrupt the attack run of or even to shoot down enemy planes. I always use a few, even bloody Sturmoviks do get shot down, thankfully! (Hopefully, especially for someone playing againts JasonC!)

[ July 20, 2005, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]