Howitzers and Infantry Guns

[Cambronne]

What is the difference between a howitzer and an Inf Gun? I mean In real life a Howitzer could fire shells over some minor obstacles,but in CM it needs to have direct LOS to the target to fire.Why?Also,a How is cheaper than a Gun.Why?

Thank you in advance!

[Bone_Vulture]

I haven't seen many howitzers in CM that are cheaper than inf guns of similar caliber. None? An example, please.

Anyway, infantry guns were typically meant for direct fire only (ie. shooting a target with LOS), while howitzers were used as ballistic artillery, shooting way beyond their LOS. Yes, there were many exceptions... Shoo, grogs!

[Bone_Vulture]

Ah, the most important part about CM engine... Only field mortars can shoot over obstacles, nothing else. 'Twas a game balance issue.

[Cambronne]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

Anyway, infantry guns were typically meant for direct fire only (ie. shooting a target with LOS), while howitzers were used as ballistic artillery, shooting way beyond their LOS. Yes, there were many exceptions... Shoo, grogs!

So how's that in CM howitzers cannot fire without LOS?

75mm Inf Gun 1937=51pts/75mm Howitzer=38

while 105mm How=52 and 150mm I.G.=almost the same(51)those were taken as regular German units.There must be something I.G.'s do for that money!

[Sergei]

If you want indirect fire artillery, then you buy artillery spotters. Onboard howitzers, guns, assault guns, HMG's, slings, whatever only shoot direct fire.

As to price differences... while I haven't checked, it could be about transport class, spottability, crew size, ammo, AT capacity, mobility, sights... any differences at all.

[Bone_Vulture]

I'll fire up the game and check. The way I remember it was that the 75mm howitzer was more expensive. A second.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by arbi:

So how's that in CM howitzers cannot fire without LOS?

75mm Inf Gun 1937=51pts/75mm Howitzer=38

while 105mm How=52 and 150mm I.G.=almost the same(51)those were taken as regular German units.There must be something I.G.'s do for that money!

First question - asked and answered.

And I checked the purchase prices: both the 75 and 105mm howitzer are more expensive, with rarity off. Well yeah, the 150mm inf gun is three points more expensive than the 105mm howitzer, but it's more than twice as potent. So there.

[JasonC]

They have different muzzle velocities, therefore different accuracy at longer ranges, the HE shell has different penetration because of this, they have different ammo loads - they are just different guns, even in CM terms. In reality the howitzers have a range of 7 miles, while the IGs fire direct at things they can see a mile or two away at most.

While on the subject, though, I do have a CMAK quibble related to it, not for the Germans but for the US. US infantry division forces have access to the M2A1 howitzer, which is right. The airborne also have access to the pack howitzers, including the 105mm pack. That is also right. But the infantry division doesn't have access to the pack howitzer, and that is wrong.

The pack howitzer version equipped the regimental cannon companies in the infantry division, 6 guns in each regiment. Which could be assigned 2 to a battalion for direct fire support if that were wanted. It would actually be more likely than using the larger, longer range full 105mm howitzers, which equipped div arty (36 of them in 3 battalions).

The pack howitzer didn't make it into CMBO but is now available in CMAK. Which is great. It'd be nice to see the US infantry have access to them, because historically they certainly did. Perhaps a minor patch tweak?

[manchildstein (ii)]

in cmbb.. the infantry gun is always cheaper than the howitzer in my experience... but i play with rarity off so maybe with random rarity you're seeing cheaper howitzers in some situations?...

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

Ah, the most important part about CM engine... Only field mortars can shoot over obstacles, nothing else. 'Twas a game balance issue.

They can shoot over obstacles. They can not target across obsatcles. Try a sIG 150mm and target the edge of a two story house or just behind the the crest of a hill.... some hit, but those who miss may land where you want them too

@arbi:

All guns are usually worth their money. IGs usually set up faster than howitzers. They travel faster. They are smaller for the same caliber. And the sIG15 cm is an awful weapon if employed correctly (keyholing to ensure it survives) or vs the AI.

Gruß

Joachim

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Joachim:

They can shoot over obstacles. They can not target across obsatcles. Try a sIG 150mm and target the edge of a two story house or just behind the the crest of a hill.... some hit, but those who miss may land where you want them too

...

IGs usually set up faster than howitzers. They travel faster.

Yeah, whatever. The point is that you can't deliberately order field guns to fire over obstacles.

And also, I just remembered that the IG's usually have a higher ROF over howitzers of similar caliber... I think?

[gunnergoz]

I collect ordnance and have an example of the WW2 German 75mm infantry gun round...the warhead is about 2/3 the length of the US 75mm round (used in everything from the 75mm Sherman tank to the French WW1 75mm GPF), while the cartridge case is about 1/3 the length of the US round's cartridge case. You end up with a very compact and fairly powerful round in these "pocket cannon" but not much muzzle velocity or range.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

Ah, the most important part about CM engine... Only field mortars can shoot over obstacles, nothing else. 'Twas a game balance issue.

Not according to statements emanating from BFC. As I recall, they said that in most cases the game maps were too small to accomodate the minimum range for various howitzers and guns firing indirectly. There was some discussion on this point and some players produced data that would throw that conclusion into question in some cases. However, the limitation had already been written into the game engine and could not be withdrawn or modified just to cover the few counter-instances. Maybe in the engine rewrite...

Michael

[gunnergoz]

I'm at home now and just re-checked the length of that German infantry gun round vs the US 75mm round. The warhead ratio I'd guessed while at work (2/3 the length of the US 75mm) was pretty right on, but the cartidge case on the German IG was a lot shorter than the US case...it is approximately 20-25 per cent of the US case in length. Meaning? There is a LOT less propellant in that infantry gun than in the US 75mm gun.

[Redwolf]

The most important difference in real life is that the howitzer is -well- a howitzer and the infantry gun is a "plain" gun.

That means the howitzer can be loaded with different size charges to get different trajectory to shoot over high obstacles, into depressions etc. The gun just has one fixed charge, in the case of an infantry gun a small one. In CM on-map you always fire the howitzer witht he maximum charge, though, because in direct fire it only offers advantages (better precision).

Also, at least in CMBO, the infantry gun was easier to spot, apparently because the slower shell would make connection a "bang" sound contact to a head turn easier.

[MikeyD]

In the game they're 'called' infantry guns, howizters, pack howitzers etc. because that was their actual title. I don't think there's a real difference in regards to game mechanics. BFC has a 'gun' engine, plugs in historically correct shell weights, muzzle velocities, and charge sizes, and lets the chips fall where they may. "A rose by any other name..." to quote Shakespeare.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

As I recall, they said that in most cases the game maps were too small to accomodate the minimum range for various howitzers and guns firing indirectly.

I don't know what BFC plays but about every non-mingame CMBB or CMAK map I played is about the maximum range of the infantry guns diagonal

Not to speak of the fact that the mentioned trick to target a hilltop or building corner has a realistic trajectory and hence shows that it would be practical. And that is with the maximum charge in the howitzers.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

As I recall, they said that in most cases the game maps were too small to accomodate the minimum range for various howitzers and guns firing indirectly.

I don't know what BFC plays but about every non-mingame CMBB or CMAK map I played is about the maximum range of the infantry guns diagonal </font>

[Redwolf]

All I say the reason we don't have it is that it is difficult and time-consuming to do - not that it wouldn't be realistic

[Michael Emrys]

Agreed. 100%. In fact, IIRC, I was one of the people calling for this back in the days of CMBO.

Michael

[Wolfe]

The howitzers turn much slower than the infantry guns, which may explain the price difference between the 1937 Inf gun and the 75mm How.

Though the fast turning 1918 Inf gun is almost the same price as the How; I wonder if it doesn't get many Hollow charge rounds and maybe that explains the price difference there? *shrug*

- Chris