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I hate to say this, but I think I found a bug... A BIG bug...


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So I am playing this TCP/IP game, and I have this gun on this hill blasting away. Life is good.

My opponenet decides gun is bad, so he is going to send some halftracks to kill it.

He sends three M3A1 halftracks racing through my lines up this hill. Amazingly, they all make it! I send some troops chasing after them to kill them.

For 5 turns three squads throw a hundred or so grenades at these tracks, for zero effect. Nothing. I eventually kill one with a Schreck, but from a range as short as 5m, not one of my squads can kill an open toppped half track by close assault.

These seems odd to me, so I set up a test scenario. Three fallschirmjager squads, three tracks. open ground, set up at about 15m. Every time the tracks run away, I order them back into the circle of squads.

5 turns later, not a single track is dead. The squads (I removed their fausts, BTW) throw dozens upon dozens of grenades. They shoot, they spit, they use harsh language.

Nothing. The tracks all live.

Jeff Heidman

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Just did a new test where I put a variety of dfferent squad types in a hole with 4 half tracks.

After 3turns, the ten squads had taken out a single track. The tracks could not get away at all.

At one point, I saw 14 grenades fly into a track in less than 15 seconds without taking it out.

Jeff Heidman

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Wow Jeff you are right.

I set up a small map and created a cicle of trees in the centre I put two german HT's and surrounded them with 1 platoon of infantry (no riflegrenades and demo)

They were all regulars.

The ht could go nowwhere but the first one was knocked out in the 3rd turn the second in the 6th turn.

I stopped counting the grenades going off.

Second test I did was with an elite squad with all HQ at +2 they killed the ht's right away in the first turn.

They still needed a lot of grenades(43 explosions I counted)but all grenades landed near the ht's and the regulars did not acheive that.

So I guess it is a question of troopquality

Although it could be better.

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Actually, I've noticed this as well. Close assaults seem to be much less effective than they used to be, and I think Jeff's test proves pretty well that there's something more than **** Happens going on.

I also feel that infantry are still too hesitant to use their organic LATW, but that's not really nere nor there at the moment.

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Originally posted by Stoffel:

They still needed a lot of grenades(43 explosions I counted)but all grenades landed near the ht's and the regulars did not acheive that.

Check whether those Halftracks were equipped

with garbage-can lids. Later models had

nimble Russian POWs holding tin shields

which they could deflect grenades with.

It was a popular way for prisoners to

get into a better rations bracket.

Look in the unit stats, below the armor

values. Doesn't anyone read the manual anymore?????????

regards,

--Rett

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I hope we can get a comment from BTS on this.

It should be relatively easy for a squad (even a regular or green) to take out a hlaf track from short range.

Otherwise, they are going to become rather useful weapons. Just drive them through the bad guys front lines shooting everything up!

Especially the Germans, since the Allies mostly lack squad level organic dedicated AT weapons.

On another note, those three tracks had four fausts (all the 100m variety) fired at them from less than 35m, no hits).

Jeff Heidman

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Don't you guys watch war movies

you know Real Life™ ones like Kelly's Heroes? smile.gif

This anti hand grenade counter measure now effectively models the crew and troops inside the HT picking up the grenades and throwing them back before they go off.

And I guess it seems like they are doing a bloody dandy job of it too smile.gif!

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-12-2001).]

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Hey I saw the same thing last nite during a IP game. My opponent surrounded my Stug with a platoon of American infantry and they showered it with grenades to no effect. I remember in past versions one or two well placed grenades would immobilized or knock out a tank. Please fix soon BTS. It seems as soon as something is fixed another problem arrises <sigh>

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Guest Space Thing

Ooooooh, HTs are the new Uber vehicle! I can see it now. Everybody will pick 20 HTs and a few tanks in QBs. Who needs infantry now? LOL smile.gif

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Same problem here. I already stopped infantry assaults on tanks if they have no AT-weapons left...and by the way, where are the infantry close AT-weapons? Where are hollow charges or AT-Wurfminen (don't know the English word), and how about Molotow cocktails? All VERY usual weapons!

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What did they do to the "close Assualt" capability. program, Tac AI subrountine, algorythm (whatever?)....

close assaulting any AFV is now seemingly impossible in v1.12.

Maybe this is more accurate and more realistic now?

BUT that change is not in the v1.12 read me and it is most certianly a change from the way it was.

I just finished attempting to close assault a Tiger with US engineers with demo charges and rifle grenades and they were in command radius of their HQ. Three waves of close assualts on the Tiger failed miserably.

MAYBE this is more realistic than it use to be, (maybe not) BUT one thing is for sure, (Ok, IMHO for sure smile.gif? ) something has changed in v1.12 when it comes to close assaulting AFV's.

Disclaimer:

(I do hope we are ALL just really unlucky and there is not really a bug and there is nothing actually wrong with the game, I'm sure they tested it to death before they released it, I know in my case I have only tried once (three times) to close assualt an AFV (a Tiger Of course {Rolly eyes}) in v1.12,

Are we all simply victims of the Six Sided Demon? (old board game expression for bad luck rolling dice smile.gif )

I'm guessing that we are stuck with it now

if v1.12 is the FINAL release.

The Hull rotation logic works very well however.! Thanks!

Any official BTS comment on close assualting AFV's in v1.12????

Just curious. smile.gif

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-12-2001).]

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I may not know a thing about WWII armour penetration or the effectivness of the old grenade against an HT.

But...

A satchel charge is about 12 pounds of HE, which even if it doesn't blow a hole in the tank, it is going to

a) concuss the occupants to the point that they will become casualties and

B) Anything not welded onto the inside surface where the charge is placed, is going to fly around in there. Creating an early version of a blender.

If a engineer assault in which one or two charges actually hit the tank isn't causing a veh casualty there is a serious problem with Close Assault.

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Guest Mikey D

I recall a true story told to me by an old jungle fighter. New recruits arrive on a Pacific Island. The commander gathers them in from of their M3 halftrack. He tells them "It is not a good idea to rely on halftrack armor for protection" then pulls his Colt .45 pistol and promptly plugs a neat round hole into the side of the thing, to to his audiences great surprise! Halftracks should not be invulnerable during close-in fighting.

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It was actually a little bit funny in the game.

At one point, as the tracks were maneuvering around and such, I had three squads, one company HQ, and one platoon HQ all targetted on a single track for most of a turn.

This track was just *inundated* with grenades. If the grenades had been rocks, I think the track would have been immobilized just by the weight! It was like a constant shower of grenades.

Jeff Heidman

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On a somewhat related topic..

I played my first TCP/IP game last night (Thanks Chris). My opponent, chris511 had 2 or more german regular squads in cover within 100m of a Comet. The comet had minimal (and real beat up) infantry support. His platoons had late model fausts. He could not get them to fire. He even moved a couple closer, but they just would not shoot for him. Might be a "s*** happens", and every time they popped their heads up the BESA fire made them duck.

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I had this problem too with two squads under command attacking an immobile Chaffee right next to it in the snow. He killed a bunch of my troops and the rest fled in disarray.

I couldn't understand it, and am interested to see others having the same problem. I did think my units should have caused some damage, but not a scratch that I could see.

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Some days the sun just don't shine up a dog's behind.

-- Catfish Hunter

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I just did my own tests. A circle of woods with two platoons of German reg infantry (edited out the Panzerfausts). First tried M3. Took two or three minutes to finally knockout. Then tried M10. Two tests both killed within 20 seconds. Tried a sherman, took about a minute.

Conclusion: it may be specific to half-tracks.

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