I hate to say this, but I think I found a bug... A BIG bug...

[Guest KwazyDog]

Well, to be honest Jeff I have been testing too and have not yet found a half track I couldnt destroy. Here was how we constructed our example...

Create a 20m x 20m island in the middle of water, so the half track cant go driving away. Place a half track in the centre and position each member of a platoon on each side of the island. Lock all units in place and play the scenario, telling each member of the platoon to target the half track.

On playback in 4 out of 5 tests Ive seen the half track die in the first minute. If it starts moving it becomes a much harder task, but this is probably how is should be. Thats currently what I have found and Ive testing with US and German half tracks.

Guys, what we need at this point is movies or better still sample scenarios to show us this possible problem in action. Ive spent several hours testing instead of building models, and cant yet replicate it

Dan

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 02-15-2001).]

[Guest Space Thing]

Here is a test that I did:

PARAMETERS:

Meeting Engagement, Day, Clear, Dry, May 1945, 400m X400m FLAT map with no houses, buildings or other terrain. Just plain open flat ground. No flags & fanaticism was normal. All were Regulars.

I set it up for:

2 US 45Rifle platoons to face 2 German 251/1 HTs AND

2 German 45Rifle platoons to face 2 US M3 HTs

I had 4 platoons facing 4 HTs. Each (US & German) platoon HQ had a value of 1 for Command, Combat, Morale, & Stealth.

The map's set up areas were touching each other with no zone in between.

Each platoon was in line abreast in the center of the map facing a lone HT and each HT was no closer than 23 meters from it's corresponding enemy infantry. Each unit (for both sides) was given "Move" orders to move to the opposite side of the map through it's enemy.

I tried this 10 times. (It's not scientific, I know.)

RESULTS:

60% of the time, all 4 HTs were KO'd in under 7 seconds. Most of the time it was in 1 or 2 seconds that they ALL were cooked.

20% of the time, all 4 were KO'd within 56 seconds of the first turn with 2 US & 1 German HT being KO'd in under 5 seconds. A single German HT survived for a while until just before the end of the turn.

20% of the time, 2 US HTs were KO'd in the first 2 seconds and the German HTs survived until the end of the turn. Panzerschrecks were the obvious difference here. The only trouble was that the US troops ran/moved right past the German HTs and kept going.

Once past, the German HTs didn't even turn around and fire at the US troops' backs.

My Conclusion????

This BIG BUG isn't as some think it is. I have to say that I agree with Madmatt. Invulnerable HTs? Nope.

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by Space Thing:

Panzerschrecks were the obvious difference here.

But to test what Jeff and the others are talking about, there should be no bazookas, Panzerschrecks, or Panzerfausts in the mix. Just straight infantry vs. the halftracks.

Michael

[Philistine]

As I understand (solely from reading this thread--I haven't done any tests and haven't yet played enough w/ 1.12 to see one way or the other) the problem is with infantry assaults, not on the survivability of half-tracks in general.

Thus, to make a true test (I believe) you would need to strip from your infantry rifle grenades/fausts/gammon bombs, etc. as the case may be.

It seems, Space Thing, that in a quick battle you can't do this, so I'm not really sure your test is valid. I have no idea if Kwazy's test did that or not. Maybe those of you who have made tests that show anomalous results could send them on?

--Philistine

[Guest KwazyDog]

Philistine, yes, my tests were grenades and small arms only, no other weapons.

Dan

[pritzl]

I'll keep testing this to see if I can replicate what I saw happen earlier today. In the example I gave earlier in the thread on Titanium halftracks, I wonder if the fact that the HT was already immobilized may have had something to do with its invulnerability to subsequent attacks?

Who knows, maybe it was a truly out of the ordinary fluke, but if I can duplicate it, i'll be sure to send you the game file.

I still have the autosave from the example that I mentioned earlier, but it's on the last turn of the test before the Allies surrender from morale trouble. I was conducting a number of tests in isolated patches of forest across the map.

[illo]

I counted 12 grenade explosions when killing stationary regular US HT. With 2xgreen German 44 squad. HT ran out of ammo so and was killed in 3rd turn after encounter.

[Doug Williams]

Ok, guys. Let's make this crystal clear. No one is saying HTs are immune to panzerfausts, panserschreks (sp?), rifle grenades, gammon bombs, demolition charges, bazookas, AT guns, .50 calibur MGs, or tank rounds. What is being said is they seem to be too tough to take out with infantry close assaults. All tests should be conducted with this in mind.

The tests I have conducted, similar to the tests that KwazyDog did, seem to show that HTs last a little too long under an infantry close assault.

KwazyDog, increase the island to 40x40. Conduct the test again using HTs, and then again using tanks. See if the HTs don't last as long as, or longer than, the tanks.

-Doug

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expert \'ek-,spert'\ n : someone who knows more and more about less and less until eventually they know everything about nothing

[Jagdcarcajou]

Kwazy,

Go back a couple pages on this thread and grab my scenario. You can run that as often as you like. It does include gammon bombs, and demo charges, etc... but there are 6 isolated control groups (3 Allied, 3 Axis). Just watch the groups armed with grenades and see what happens. Even the demo charges and gammon bombs seem neutered though. Fausts and rifle grenades work great.

Chris

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What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou?

CM Recon

[Doug Williams]

Ok, I just did three quick tests, similar to KwazyDog's, only I increased the island to 40x40. I used a Regular SPW 251/1 vs one Regular American rifle platoon, with no special weapons. The tests start with the rifle platoon surrounding the HT. At the end of each turn, I order the individual squads and the HQ unit to move towards and target the HT.

1st test: HT lasts 1 minute, 50 seconds and causes 15 casualties before being knocked out.

2nd test: HT wins the battle. It kills/captures the entire rifle platoon in 3 minutes 45 seconds.

3rd test: HT lasts three minutes, 9 seconds and causes 18 casualties before being knocked out.

Keep in mind this was conducted on a 40x40 island with no way for the HT to escape, a very disadvantageous position for a HT to be in when 40 men with rifles and grenades are trying to kill you.

Draw your own conclusions.

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expert \'ek-,spert'\ n : someone who knows more and more about less and less until eventually they know everything about nothing

[Chupacabra]

My test -

1 Heer pat. 44 rifle platoon vs. 1 US M3 Halftrack, and 1 US rifle platoon vs. 1 SPW 250/1. Both groups in inescapable 20x20 pits. LATW removed from both sides. Combat and leadership bonuses removed from HQ units, morale bonus +2.

1) M3 KO turn 3, SPW KO turn 6

2) M3 KO turn 4, SPW KO turn 6

3) M3 KO turn 1, SPW causes 38 infantry casualties, Allied autosurrender at end of turn 2.

4) M3 KO turn 7, SPW KO turn 5

5) M3 KO turn 3, SPW KO turn 4

6) M3 KO turn 2, SPW KO turn 2

7) M3 KO turn 3, SPW causes 36 infantry casualties, Allied autosurrender at end of turn 4.

8) M3 KO turn 1, SPW KO turn 1

9) M3 KO turn 2, SPW KO turn 6

10) M3 KO turn 5, SPW KO turn 10

NB:

On only one of those tests, (the 8th), was the result halfway predictable. The results of the other tests ran from worrisome to ridiculous (the 10th. 10 turns??!!?!?). I am going to bed at the moment, but I will repeat the test tomorrow using different vehicles. I have to say though, if there isn't a bug, then there's a whole lot more **** Happening than usual. At some point though, you've got to admit, there's a pattern.

Edit: test performed with 1.12, btw.

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[This message has been edited by Chupacabra (edited 02-16-2001).]

[Guest Space Thing]

Originally posted by Space Thing:

Here is a test that I did:

PARAMETERS:

Meeting Engagement, Day, Clear, Dry, May 1945, 400m X400m FLAT map with no houses, buildings or other terrain. Just plain open flat ground. No flags & fanaticism was normal. All were Regulars.

I set it up for:

2 US 45Rifle platoons to face 2 German 251/1 HTs AND

2 German 45Rifle platoons to face 2 US M3 HTs

I had 4 platoons facing 4 HTs. Each (US & German) platoon HQ had a value of 1 for Command, Combat, Morale, & Stealth.

The map's set up areas were touching each other with no zone in between.

Each platoon was in line abreast in the center of the map facing a lone HT and each HT was no closer than 23 meters from it's corresponding enemy infantry. Each unit (for both sides) was given "Move" orders to move to the opposite side of the map through it's enemy.

I tried this 10 times. (It's not scientific, I know.)

RESULTS:

60% of the time, all 4 HTs were KO'd in under 7 seconds. Most of the time it was in 1 or 2 seconds that they ALL were cooked.

20% of the time, all 4 were KO'd within 56 seconds of the first turn with 2 US & 1 German HT being KO'd in under 5 seconds. A single German HT survived for a while until just before the end of the turn.

20% of the time, 2 US HTs were KO'd in the first 2 seconds and the German HTs survived until the end of the turn. Panzerschrecks were the obvious difference here. The only trouble was that the US troops ran/moved right past the German HTs and kept going.

Once past, the German HTs didn't even turn around and fire at the US troops' backs.

My Conclusion????

This BIG BUG isn't as some think it is. I have to say that I agree with Madmatt. Invulnerable HTs? Nope.

Yes, my test needed to be modified and redone. This is what I changed:

I took away all the panzerfausts & rifle grenades.

I put each of the 4 "confrontations" on a 40mX40m island with a bocage inbetween each so one won't be able to help the others. All 4 were isolated. The HTs started 20m away from an opposing platoon of rifle infantry.

I tracked when the HTs were KO'd. "18/1" means it was KO'd at 18 seconds into the first turn, "53/5" means it was KO'd at 53 seconds into turn 5, "won" means the HT defeated the opposing platoon.

This is the raw data after 10 tests:

Turn...1.....2.....3.....4.....5

G1...16/1...won...18/1..53/1..38/2

D2...54/1...won...won...11/1..8/3

US1..20/2...33/1..58/1..13/1..51/3

US2..12/1...27/1..57/1..20/1..52/1

Turn...6.....7.....8.....9.....10

G1...15/1...14/3..12/1..17/1..26/1

G2...18/1...30/1..won...won...won

US1..26/4...7/2...9/3...53/5..6/2

US2..57/3...18/1..31/1..10/7..30/1

CONCLUSIONS:

I thought it was interesting that a German HT could go under the water and was out of sight from the opposing infantry twice. That was REAL funny. Another one of those secret weapons of the Germans?

It sure looked like they brought along several duffle bags of grenades -especially against the HT that lasted 7 turns. Still, the majority of the HTs were KO'd fairly quickly.

The ONLY thing I saw was evidence of the fuzzy logic. Sorry, after looking even closer, I still don't see no stinkin bug.

[Spook]

I have also been trying a test scenario devised with 40X40 islands, and get the generalized impression that HT's are lasting longer than they should.

But that's just repeating other people's impressions.

Let's try a different tack: FRAME THE ISSUE!!

1) The halftrack is an armored vehicle, correct? It has given armor thicknesses on various sides, depending on vehicle type, correct?

2) What is usually being used to kill the HT's in these cases? Grenades, correct?

So...what is the MECHANIC on how the grenade "kills" (or immobilizes) the HT?

Well, we see the grenades being lobbed. But is "grenade throw accuracy" an effect? Does the grenade have to accurately land INTO the open-top HT passenger compartment to normally kill it, per CM calculations? This isn't available info to CM gamers.

Next, what is grenade "HE effect"? We CM gamers aren't normally privy to this also. And grenades are lobbed, they are not ordnance shots that normally apply armor penetration calculations. As such, how can we presume that ANY grenade HE blast, that's calculated to be OUTSIDE of the HT, to have any "penetration" or "kill" effect through the HT's given armor ratings?

Again, we don't know. Leastways, I don't.

So to minimize speculation as to what SEEMS "right" or "wrong" in this situation, perhaps it would be better first for BTS to relate the MECHANICS of how a grenade achieves a vehicle kill (whenever that happens). Until then, we will run in speculation circuits.

[Guest KwazyDog]

Well, I think to refer to it as a bug is a little incorrect to be honest, as the code for close assults hasnt been changed for some time. What you are seeing guys is the way it has been for some time, and hasnt been changed in 1.12.

I am still investigating the matter, though I am beginning to wonder what we are defing as a close assult here. From 10-15 meters the Half Tracks are knocked out easily, and this is easy to replicate. Now from 20-25 meters is does indeed become harder...but the question is, is this wrong?

The 10-15 meter range represent true close assults with guys running up, firing smg's and maybe tossing a grenade over the edge into the vehicle. But from 20-25 meters, this is not as easy, and the grenades being thrown are basically just represent that, grenades being thrown from a distance.

Im not saying that there isnt some tweaking require here, but I am just offering some food for thought. I am wondering if maybe some are over estimating what a close assult is, and what it represents in CM. Also from the other perspective, maybe CM currently underestimates how difficult it is to through a grenade into a vehicle from a distance.

Testing continues...

Dan

[Alexander]

Am I the only one who has tested with different EXEs? On my 20x20 deserted island my results, posted earlier in this thread, showed HTs lasting nearly 4 times longer with 1.12 than with 1.1b16. Haven't tried SPWs or other vehicles but it's clear-to me-that BTS seems to have replaced grenades with water ballons. I have to admit I didn't manually target the HT with the infantry in either version.

NEWS FLASH: just reran the trials: old version HTs (versus platoon of Heer sans grenades) last , on the median, < 10 seconds. With 1.12 sometimes 120, even 180 seconds. The median is close to 60. Don't tell me I'm hallucinating I 've been drug free since the early 80s!

[Jagdcarcajou]

Dan,

You may well be right. I know that my experiences are telling a different story right now, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is any bugs at all.

I do know that in the past I have had a single squad with casualties assault and take out a Lynx in less than 25 seconds, but in the test I have online right now, a full platoon can't take out a halftrack in 2, sometimes 3 turns.

I modified the test for my own use removing all the components that appear to be working and concentrating on the grenade issue. My squads can eventually take them out, so they are certainly not invincible. It just goes contrary to my past experience which have resulted in much greater success.

Ahhh, the wonders of statistical probability...

Chris

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What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou?

CM Recon

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

I am still investigating the matter, though I am beginning to wonder what we are defing as a close assult here. From 10-15 meters the Half Tracks are knocked out easily, and this is easy to replicate. Now from 20-25 meters is does indeed become harder...but the question is, is this wrong?

The 10-15 meter range represent true close assults with guys running up, firing smg's and maybe tossing a grenade over the edge into the vehicle. But from 20-25 meters, this is not as easy, and the grenades being thrown are basically just represent that, grenades being thrown from a distance.

This is a point I tried to make earlier. I think some people may be overestimating the effect of thrown grenades in a combat situation. These are, after all, ARMORED vehicles, and hand grenades are not in general penetration projectiles.

Michael

[Maximus]

Originally posted by Jagdcarcajou:

Kwazy,

Go back a couple pages on this thread and grab my scenario.

Here's the active link.

http://members.home.net/jagdcarcajou/CATest.zip

[Alexander]

I took the liberty Of downloading this well-made test scenario. It features 4 HTs- 2 US, 2German- a MK4 and a Sherman each surrounded by an enemy platoon segragated by hedgerows.

My tests show a 50% higher survival rate for these vehicles under 1.12 than the earlier Beta. C'mon, BTS, it's obvious.

[JoePrivate]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Well, I think to refer to it as a bug is a little incorrect to be honest, as the code for close assults hasnt been changed for some time. What you are seeing guys is the way it has been for some time, and hasnt been changed in 1.12.

I am still investigating the matter, though I am beginning to wonder what we are defing as a close assult here. From 10-15 meters the Half Tracks are knocked out easily, and this is easy to replicate. Now from 20-25 meters is does indeed become harder...but the question is, is this wrong?

....

Dan

Well perhaps nothing was changed intentionally but something has changed. A test case with a HT in a 20m island surrounded by rough tiles and a platoon of infantry w/grenades only. Engagement range of 13m or less before HT moves, then 15 to 22m, run 5 times.

Version 1.05

M3HT lasted 14s, 10s, 8s, 9s, and 9s before KO'd

251/1HT lasted 9s, 11s, 11s, 9s, and 10s before KO'd

Version 1.12

M3HT lasted 105s, 125s, 221s, 131s, and 123s before KO'd

251/1HT lasted 93s, 138s, 58s, 118s, and 84s before KO'd

Maybe the results from 1.05 are unrealistic and the 1.12 results are more 'in-line', I don't know, but the difference is there.

[Guest Madmatt]

Just letting everyone know that we are still very actively looking into this issue.

Madmatt

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

Just letting everyone know that we are still very actively looking into this issue.

Madmatt

Hi Matt

GREAT

thanks for the prompt update!

I just sent you two files that illustrate the nature of this issue quite well. (I think)

I hope you will check your e-mail and run those files.

Good luck

-tom w

[Hakko Ichiu]

Just brainstorming here, but the following comes to mind:

-- Charles says no changes to close assault code in a long time

-- Changes have been made to half-track/thin-skinned vehicles however, to whit:

* More responsive to mortar fire

* Less vulnerable to .50 cal MG

* Others I may have forgotten??

Could these have made HTs less vulnerable to grenades as well? And if so, perhaps that is as it should be, given, as Michael and others have mentioned, that an AP grenade is not a penetrator, merely a weak HE/frag blast, against which an HT is designed to protect its cargo.

Apparently, 'Fausts, demo charges, and gammon bombs still work, which is as it should be, as any of these ought to spectacularly KO an HT. A grenade, however, unless it landed inside the driver's or passenger's compartment would, to my mind, have only a small chance of doing in an HT. Small arms fire is another matter, and I lack knowledge about the vulnerability of HTs to small arms so I won't comment.

Still it seems to my booze and alkaloid ravaged cerebral cortex that this might be a fruitful area for investigation if this is, in fact, a bug.

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Ethan

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"We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech." -- Dr. Kathleen Dixon, Director of Women's Studies, Bowling Green State University

[Joe Shaw]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't BTS (and a few others) say that the grenade is simply a graphical device to show that a close assault is underway? If so I think we may be putting too much emphasis on the "grenade" issue.

FWIW, I did a ten "game" test using the small 20X20 map and the close assaults worked very well against a 251/1 with non AT US Infantry.

Joe

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I heartily admit you are a swine, Joe. But you are OUR swine. (Goanna)

[Chupacabra]

Kwazy -

The tests I ran last night were all at close assault range: ie, the test was setup so that at least one squad would always be within 10m of the halftrack it was assaulting. But if you'll notice, except in one case out of ten, I was still getting completely exaggerated results. I'd be happy to send the specific setup I'm using, if it'd help.

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