Really, how far is 545m?

[pilgrim]

Ok, folks, be prepared--newbie problems coming your way.

Last night I started my 4th game against the AI. The first 3 were small infantry engagements to get the feel of things, and everything seemed wonderful (being a long time player of SL, ASL, etc. etc.). CM 'felt' perfect, and I was convinced I'd found the game I've been wanting for years. So last night I play a Combined Arms Quick Battle, AI gets Germans, I take US. I have a reinforced Rifle Company, 3 M4A1 Shermans, and a whole boatload of artillery.

Turn 3: AI reveals his StuG to fire at my advancing infantry. Having waited for him to show armor, I plot 2 of my Shermans to Hunt out from behind the patch of woods that conceals them. Movie starts: 1st Sherman clears the treeline, spots the StuG, StuG spots my M4A1, range 545m. I'm ready to see the gun battle that I always had to imagine using little cardboard counters played out in front of me in glorious action and color (well, that's a bit over-dramatic, but you get the point). StuG fires first and sends my M4A1 into a ball of flame. "Wow!" thinks me, "Nice shot Fritz." ('Hmm, he must have rolled a 2 on that one...first shot hit from 545m!') So, I now wait for the gun battle of my dreams between my 2nd M4A1 and the StuG. My second M4A1 rounds the treeline, spots the StuG, and gets off the first shot. Crunch! 1 knocked out StuG.

------Screeeeeeech------

My rusty brakes bring my CM enjoyment to a screeching halt. 545m? 2 first shot hits? From Regular crews? (How I can tell that the StuG, 545m away, is 'Regular' is a topic for another discussion.) To me, this just doesn't 'feel' right. 545m = 1/3 mile, 6 football fields. Driving to work this morning (Yes, I'm obsessing about this!!) I'm clocking off objects 1/3 mile away using my odometer, and I still don't feel any better. So, I need some help...

1. Does anybody know what range/accuracy requirement was used to qualify WWII tank gunners?

2. Is my calibration out of whack? Do I need to read up on WWII armored engagements? Is 545m a short range gunfight, where first shot hits are to be expected this often? (I know, my statistical sample of 2 is pretty small. )

3. Before I bought CM, I read in a review that of course I cannot find now, that the design team "Upped the to-hit percentage of tanks and AT guns in a patch (BTW, I'm at 1.12), even though the original percentages were based on tons of research", or something like that. Since the search function of this board seems to really hate me, was there a thread about this? Was it discussed? Did the design team give their reasons for changing their original numbers?

4. Or, is this just a case of extremely good dice-rolling, and things will straighten out the more I play, (In SL it was easy to see when your opponent got lucky, but here all the dice-rolling is hidden.) so I just need to calm down?

5. Should I just scrap the armor and play with only infantry?

Somebody please help me. Tell me that everything is ok and I need to go soak my head in icewater. Tell me that I'm flat out wrong--I don't care. Just tell me something.

Pilgrim

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pilgrim:

...To me, this just doesn't 'feel' right...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome to the Forum, pilgrim. CM IS the game you've been waiting for. As a long time SL/ASL gamer for decades I advise you NOT to expect the same results in CM as you are accustomed to in ASL. CM is a lot more lethal. Exposing your tanks to a known enemy with the ability to penetrate at any range is a big risk. 545m is well within range of a first shot kill. German optics were good. You'll need to adjust your thinking. In CM, real world tactics work. Good luck and good hunting.

[Stixx]

Howdy Pilgrim. (John Wayne said that once or twice didn't he )

First shot kills from that range are not what i'd call the norm but do happen.

Don't right off the armoured side of CM give it some time. You'll soon get the "feel" for it. The armour penetration tables and hit percentages are done extremely well. You will get freak shots and things that run against the norm in CM occasionally just as they do in real life.

Welcome to the community Pilgrim.

[aka_tom_w]

we have been over this one many times

This may sound strange but most of us here now believe that combat in CMBO and especially tank gunnery are modeled MORE accurately than any other WWII game or simulation has ever modeled them.

for instance in the board game Tobruk (I happen to have it handy) a German Marder III with a 76.2mm ® main weapon at 525 m needs a roll of 5 or more on two six sided dice to get a first shot hit. The game models Armoured combat in the Desert around 1942.So back to the point in this case in the game on a roll of two dice ONLY a roll of 2,3,or 4 will MISS at 525 m.

ANd the legendary 88 mm Flak needs a roll of 7 or greater to get a first shot hit ALL the way out to 1200m in Tobruk. Rolling a 7 or greater on two six sided dice is NOT hard given a 30 sec turn and an axquired rate of fire of 7(!!!) rounds every 30 secs!! Those Damn 88's were MURDER in Tobruk and my friends ALWAYS suckered me into playing the Brits since my dad was from the UK.

SO...

What did we learn?

CMBO is not like Tobruk or ASL or SL when it comes to armoured combat but you will find most folks here think it is VERY historically accurate and more realistic than any other game.

Good luck

When you get good, play a real human opponent via TCP/IP and get set for the thrill of your life!

-tom w

[aka_tom_w]

"3. Before I bought CM, I read in a review that of course I cannot find now, that the design team "Upped

the to-hit percentage of tanks and AT guns in a patch (BTW, I'm at 1.12), even though the original

percentages were based on tons of research", or something like that. Since the search function of this

board seems to really hate me, was there a thread about this? Was it discussed? Did the design team

give their reasons for changing their original numbers?"

The original numbers were modified because it was proven by more than a few folks (read Grogs) posting here that their original chance to hit percentages were too conservative and many here (including myself) were loudly complaining that there were too many misses a short range and 500m is SHORT range.

not to sound grog like myself,

here are some threads on gunnery accuracy you may be interested in

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=004572

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=014199 http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009258 http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009792 http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010850 http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=011342

this one:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=014094

is about "gunnery equation modifed slightly"

Steve G comments Here about accuracy in CMBO:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=014199&p=3

ALSO begin new to the game please bear in mind that tanks can and will shoot RIGHT directly through ALL vehciles live or dead that are not smoking ONLY smoking vehciles block LOS

more gunery threads to follow

-tom w

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[tss]

Gun accuracy in WWII depended on _many_ variables. I don't go now into CM details, but here are some interesting examples with both accurate and inaccurate shots:

- On June 1944 near Johannes in Karelian Isthmus one Finnish 75mm AT gun opened fire at a Finnish T-26 at the range of 15 meters. The first shot missed, but the second hit (while the commander of the clearly marked tank was shouting to the gun crew to stop firing).

- Also in Karelian Isthmus, during the Finnish counter attack at Kuuterselkä (14 June 1944) one Finnish StuG-IIIG noticed an enemy T-34-85 very close (40m, IIRC), fired and missed. The T-34 fired back, and also missed. The second shot of the Finnish gunner Lauri Leppänen hit the Soviet tank and blew it up.

- Although there is some debate whether the following event actually happened, Finnish T-34-76 gunner Reino Lehväslaiho claims to have hit a Soviet T-34 from the range of almost 2000m with the first shot at Portinhoikka on 26 June 1944.

- Then there's also the freak occurrence where a Sherman gunner remembered the exact length of Champs Elysee from school and hit a German Panther with the first shot at the range of ~2000m.

- A particularly impressive hit happened on 19 (or was it 20) February 1940, when a Finnish 120 mm coastal gun hit a light Soviet tank with sixth round when the range was, again, about 2km. What makes this impressive is the fact that the sights of the Armstrong gun had been blown off by constant Soviet artillery barrages, the elevation and azimuth controls were damaged, and the gun had to be fired by hitting the firing pin with a hammer.

- Tommi

[pilgrim]

Snake Eyes, Stixx: Thanks for the quick responses and the polite way of slapping me and telling me to wake up.

aka_tom_w: Wow, thanks for the links. That's *exactly* what I was looking for. Did you use the search? What search terms did you enter?

tss: Thanks for the anecdotes, showing both long-range incredibly accuracy and short range misses. I was ROFLOL at some of those, but please, no more. It's a dead giveaway to my boss that I'm not doing engineering work if I'm laughing my head off as he walks by.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>while the commander of the clearly marked tank was shouting to the gun crew to stop firing <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The mental picture of that entire scene is priceless...

Thanks again, all.

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

...This may sound strange but most of us here now believe that combat in CMBO and especially tank gunnery are modeled MORE accurately than any other WWII game or simulation has ever modeled them...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fully agree. There have been many debates and discussions on this since the Forum has been open. BTS listens to their customers and when a valid point is made they are willing to adjust the game.

Be forewarned, pilgrim, Panthers and Tigers are NOT invulnerable.

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pilgrim:

Snake Eyes, Stixx: Thanks for the quick responses and the polite way of slapping me and telling me to wake up.

aka_tom_w: Wow, thanks for the links. That's *exactly* what I was looking for. Did you use the search? What search terms did you enter?

tss: Thanks for the anecdotes, showing both long-range incredibly accuracy and short range misses. I was ROFLOL at some of those, but please, no more. It's a dead giveaway to my boss that I'm not doing engineering work if I'm laughing my head off as he walks by.

The mental picture of that entire scene is priceless...

Thanks again, all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure

no problem

I used my member number 1515 and the word gunnery to do the search

Since I knew I posted in MOST gunnery threads I searched with my member number.

if you want EVEN more info look up Rexford's member number and use it and type in gunnery or accuracy and you will be so busy reading technical details you will never have time to play CMBO again !!

The search when it is narrowed to one members posts (i.e. Rexford or me) should only take about 3-4 minutes ok?

Good luck!

-tom w

[Herr Oberst]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pilgrim:

Thanks again, all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a quick question: As you drive down the road, ticking distances off with your odometer, do you look at the thingies down the road through a telescopic sight?

Commander spots targets, gunner lays in with gun sights.

[DekeFentle]

I was with the 11 ACR in Germany circa 1990. I was assigned to the gunners position in my Bradley after about 18 months of my tour. The Bradley has an OX sight, which is nothing more than a periscope with a range finding site consisting two lines forming a V and a center line running up the middle. (actually IIRC its two V’s, one for flank and one for head-on targets) The site is to be used in case the primary firing site is disabled. In ranged gunnery firing single shot using the manual traverse and elevation you can attain a first shot hit up to 800 meters in the neighborhood of 50% of the time with very little practice. You almost need to be a contortionist to get your body into position to use this site AND the manual controls but we did indeed practice it.

Now I know this is NOT apples to apples. The 35mm on a Bradley is a very high velocity gun IIRC 2850 meters per sec. (any of you active scouts out there feel free to correct me) and I sure wouldn’t want to try to take a shot on the move with that system.

On the other side of the coin I have a PBEM going, my opponent has a Jumbo Sherman on one hill and I have a Panther on another at about 550 meters. We have traded shots on about four different turns as we jockey back and forth out of each others LOS. I have yet to see a first shot hit from either of these beasts.

Welcome to the wonderful world of CM, the best thing I can say is sometimes you need to chalk it up to “**** Happens”. On average I think after a few more games you’ll come to realize this is a damn fine game/simulation, probably the best you’ve ever had the pleasure of entertaining yourself with.

[pilgrim]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Herr Oberst:

[QB]

Just a quick question: As you drive down the road, ticking distances off with your odometer, do you look at the thingies down the road through a telescopic sight?

Commander spots targets, gunner lays in with gun sights.

[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, that might be a bit difficult to explain before the judge....

"You see, your honor, I was looking at cars in parking lots through a telescopic sight, as suggested on the CM forum because I wasn't confident of their gunnery results. So in fact, no, I certainly didn't see the line of cars in front of me stopped at the red light...."

Nope, no way I want that to happen. So, I guess I'll just keep playing Tank Commander.

I *do* get the point though.

[Pak40]

Hi Pilgrim, Welcome to the front lines.

I'd like to make a few statements in reply to your post.

First, what you witnessed is uncommon: Two regular crews getting 1st shot hits at 500+ meters. If it were possible to replay that QB you'd get different results every time.

Second, 500m is a close range for tanks. Not point blank but close. I'd say 700-800 is medium for most medium size tanks and 1200+ is far.

Third, I also used to think that SL was the end all be all of wargaming, not anymore. I realized this when it dawned on my that in order for my bazooka team needed a 6 or below to KILL a Mk IV tank. That's a less than 50% chance to kill after he already hit. Someting isn't right about that. After a hit, a bazooka should get a kill 80-90% of the time with the remaining % damaging the tank in some way or a rare no damage.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DekeFentle:

Now I know this is NOT apples to apples. The 35mm on a Bradley is a very high velocity gun IIRC 2850 meters per sec. (any of you active scouts out there feel free to correct me) and I sure wouldn’t want to try to take a shot on the move with that system.

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a 25mm and the velocity isnt 2850 METERS per second. Thats probably feet per second.

Theres another thread thats currently in the first couple of pages here. I try to explain to the laymen here the difference between accuracy, repeatability and resolution. Its 'most accurate tank' I think.

Shots at such close range as 15 meters, while funny and anectodal, have their own psych effect and are not to be taken as accuracy examples.

But 500 meters is probably the sighting range of alot of AT weapons. Thats where you fire the weapon and tweak in the controls on a range (after boresighting).

Lewis

[DekeFentle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Its a 25mm and the velocity isnt 2850 METERS per second. Thats probably feet per second.

Lewis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the corrections Lewis. It's amazing how memory fades over a lousy 10 years. It was indeed a 25mm, and feet per sec is undoubtedly the unit of measure.

Good lord as much time as I spent in one of those things you'ld think I could remember the basics.

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pak40:

I realized this when it dawned on my that in order for my bazooka team needed a 6 or below to KILL a Mk IV tank. That's a less than 50% chance to kill after he already hit. Someting isn't right about that. After a hit, a bazooka should get a kill 80-90% of the time with the remaining % damaging the tank in some way or a rare no damage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to add to just that. A Bazooka round being of a Shaped Charged warhead has the same penetrating power at any range. Granted the maximum range of a 'Zook or 'Schreck is about 200m.

So thinking of combat results in terms of die rolls really isn't very accurate. Think in terms of muzzle velocity, size of shell, type of shell, armor thickness, angle of impact, and of course range. But not really, range.

Also, pilgrim, if you are not aware, CM is highly moddable. Meaning that damn near every texture in the game can be modified. There are some excellent "mods" on several sites. For some really nice Hi-Res Shermans, Stuart-based vehicles, and M8/M20 Greyhounds, and Trucks, look no further than Marco Bergman mods. For some really awesome German PzIVs, StuGs, and Panthers, look no further than Fernando mods.

For a complete terrain overhaul, grab Magua's Normandy Terrain set.

[Gen-x87H]

Welcome to the wonderful world of CM, the best thing I can say is sometimes you need to chalk it up to “**** Happens”."

Couldnt agree with you more.

Lost a Panther to a Churchill from 1200 meters. My opponent informed me that it was the only C shot that tank had and he hit me on the first shot! Unbelieveable considering the gun on that tank is horribly inaccurate.

Doh! Luckily I took the other churchill down with me but that put me in a bad position armor wise and I knew in this ME I was on the defensive. SO i ran into the town and ended with a minor loss.

Gen

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pilgrim:

Ok, folks, be prepared--newbie problems coming your way.

Movie starts: 1st Sherman clears the treeline, spots the StuG, StuG spots my M4A1, range 545m. I'm ready to see the gun battle that I always had to imagine using little cardboard counters played out in front of me in glorious action and color -well, that's a bit over-dramatic, but you get the point-. StuG fires first and sends my M4A1 into a ball of flame. "Wow!" thinks me, "Nice shot Fritz." -'Hmm, he must have rolled a 2 on that one...first shot hit from 545m!'-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Pilgrim, I think you misread the probabilities a little in the first place. 545m is what, 14 hexes in ASL? At 14 hexes, an unbuttoned StuGIIIG would start with a base 8 To Hit#, +1 for L gun = 9, -2 for Moving Target = 7, +1 for the M4 being a Large Target = 8 maybe another -2 for Target < two MF in LOS, brings you down to a 6 or less on two dice To Hit. That's about a 42% chance To Hit, even in stodgy aulde ASL "each roll represents multiple shots" terms. The M4 firing back and scoring as Bounding Fire is a little more spectacular in ASL terms, but not much more.

All that being said, I agree with the "two different games achieving two different things" school of thought. But of the two, I'll have to side with CM, although I still buy anything ASL-related that MMP puts out these days.

-dale

(edited to fix my confusion of "equal to" with "less than or equal to")

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: dalem ]

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dalem:

...That's about a 14% chance To Hit...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you mean 42%.

[tss]

Username wrote:

Shots at such close range as 15 meters, while funny and anectodal, have their own psych effect and are not to be taken as accuracy examples.

Never claimed anything else. However, I also have the view that pretty much _all_ shots fired in combat have some "psych effect", regardless of range.

I forgot to add one interesting thing to my anecdotes above:

- During Winter War, Finns noticed that when firing at dusk at normal combat ranges, the 37 mm Bofors AT guns without sights were actually more accurate than guns with sights. (The coming darkness seriously hindered vision through the telescope sight).

- Tommi

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

Username wrote:

Shots at such close range as 15 meters, while funny and anectodal, have their own psych effect and are not to be taken as accuracy examples.

Never claimed anything else. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why did you say the following?

'Gun accuracy in WWII depended on _many_ variables. I don't go now into CM details, but here are some interesting examples with both accurate and inaccurate shots:'

'Examples' then followed. You are claiming these are examples of accurate and inaccurate shots. Examples of accuracy no? Is this an accurate question? Are all Finns like the Finns that post here on the CM board?

Lewis

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pilgrim:

1. Does anybody know what range/accuracy requirement was used to qualify WWII tank gunners?

2. Is my calibration out of whack? Do I need to read up on WWII armored engagements? Is 545m a short range gunfight, where first shot hits are to be expected this often? (I know, my statistical sample of 2 is pretty small. )

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) German tank sights, a least by 1943 were zeroed at 1000m, which meant that was the average range they expected engagements.

2) On the West Front thats a relatively long range fight. But the Panther and Tiger were optimized for fighting in the 1500-2000 meter range. The Panthers gun was specifically designed to be able to penetrate a T-34 frontally from 2000m.

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes:

I think you mean 42%. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gack!!! I hate making that mistake. Thanks!

See, Pilgrim - almost a guaranteed hit there.

-dale

[ragnaar15]

How far is 545m? About a 1:14.5 minute run for me!! Hahahaha im so fast (and unBELIEVABLY amused) END TRANSMISSION.

[Doug Beman]

Kenneth Macksey's book Tank v Tank tells of how, in the late 50s or early 60s, 2 Israeli tanks (Chieftains I believe) fired dozens of shots at 2 dug-in (immobile) Syrian PzIVs, over the space of about an hour, at a range of about 1200m, without even a single hit.

I don't have the book with me, or memorized, so the details may be incorrect but the spirit is that anything can happen.

DjB