Armor Book Status

[rexford]

Lorrin Bird here.

Book will be finished and bound this week, ready to go next week.

Still can't find Russian penetration data against face-hardened armor.

British tests of German 75mm APCBC, U.S. 76mm APCBC, British 17 pounder and Russian 76.2mm BR-350B APBC at 610 m/s impact against British armor (0° impact) were tracked down and compared to data in our book. Very close match.

German 75mm APCBC outpenetrates U.S. 76mm APCBC at 610 m/s by 13% when heavier and larger size of U.S. 76mm round is factored out of comparison.

Russian 76.2mm round penetrates 75mm, compared to 101mm for German 75mm and 90mm for U.S. 76mm. 17 pounder APCBC penetrated 107mm.

If 17 pounder APCBC had an HE filler and cavity instead of being solid, penetration would drop to 95mm or less.

Seeing that 17 pounder is larger and heavier than German 75mm, the above data shows that German ammo is very much superior to British, American and Russian in terms of penetration when all rounds put on constant weight-diameter basis.

We put the above analysis into book just to show how it supports the penetration figures we use, although there is quite a bit of other info. We have U.S. penetration data for German guns and ammo against American armor, and Russian 122mm APBC against U.S. armor. This allows us to directly compare German penetration data to American armor.

More info next week when book is ready to ship.

Table of contents available if you are interested. It is posted on the Yahoo tankers site, in the files section. Will provide address later.

Almost forgot. Book shows how 75mm HE fired at low velocity is very superior to 88mm and 90mm HE fired at higher velocities against points on the ground. Book also compares British, U.S., German and Russian HE rounds for percentage of total weight as HE filler and makes all sorts of speculative and semi-substantiated guesstimates on what is better than what. And presents a detailed and totally challengeable analysis of HE ricochet fire characteristics, where 75mm HE reigns supreme (in my mind, at any rate).

Along with page after page of slope effect curves, "how to" tables and curves on converting cast and high hardness armor to regular rolled stuff and firing test data analysis that proves stuff beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt, if you happen to be me. Others may wish to think about it some before they agree.

Page after page of penetration data and armor stats, with armor type identified including "high probability of crap", otherwise known as flawed.

And, as our piece de resistance, the world's greatest Tiger mantlet drawings (front and side), with armor thickness noted for each area and six pics from Saumur Museum that illustrate some of the finer points. And not to be outdone, hits on the Tiger mantlet free-edge are analyzes in thrilling detail (but not so much as to cause heart palpitations) that show how useless 76mm APCBC was against Tiger's mighty mantlet.

More?

Yes, lots more. Hard data, soft projectiles and armor, and all within a 200 page masterpiece. Enough reading for a lifetime (if you're a firefly).

Always wanted to be a sideshow barker. How'd I do?

[Michael Dorosh]

Rent the movie "RIEL" if you can find it. William Shatner plays a carnival barker - you did much better than he did, but then again, how could you not? It's really quite funny to see - even better than his rendition of Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds.

[Jeff Duquette]

Great news Rexford. Looking forward to looking through what you've come up with.

Speaking of William Shatner, I hear tell he is going to be the Host of an upcoming American Version of "The Iron Chef".

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rexford:

Lorrin Bird here.

Book also compares British, U.S., German and Russian HE rounds for percentage of total weight as HE filler and makes all sorts of speculative and semi-substantiated guesstimates on what is better than what. And presents a detailed and totally challengeable analysis of HE ricochet fire characteristics, where 75mm HE reigns supreme (in my mind, at any rate).

More?

Yes, lots more. Hard data, soft projectiles and armor, and all within a 200 page masterpiece. Enough reading for a lifetime (if you're a firefly).

Always wanted to be a sideshow barker. How'd I do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sucker born every minute Mr Bird.

Hard data, soft speculations, piercing guesses, bouncing calculations, filler and more!! Is it just me or does Lorrin come off as someone that thinks you know what he is talking about?

Just how much? You forgot the price..

Lewis

[aka_tom_w]

Thats GREAT news!

I plan to order the book.

But I'm sorry I have to Ask:

what is "76mm APCBC"

that is not the tungsten (t) we use in CMBO is it?

I thought 76 mm tungsten was HVAP High Velocity Armour Piercing

but "76mm APCBC"?

Armour Piercing commonweath ballistic core?

Armour Piercing cannon ball crackers?

Armour Piercing cupola busting cannisters?

just curious you know

thanks

-tom w

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

But I'm sorry I have to Ask:

what is "76mm APCBC"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Armor Piercing Capped Ballistic Cap

IIRC the shell has a flat cap on the tip that improves its performance against highly sloped armor by digging into the armor a bit on impact, turning the nose down into the armor instead of letting it richochet off (in theory).

Groggier folks than me will correct me if I'm wrong.

[ 06-05-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[rexford]

APCBC is very effective against face-hardened armor since the armor piercing cap with the flat nose has a tiny air space just above the main projectile nose. Face-hardened armor defeats ammo by cracking the nose, and the AP cap shifts the initial impact from the nose to the shoulders and spreads it out more.

75mm APCBC from Sherman penetrates 88mm of homogenous armor at 100m but 102mm of face-hardened armor. British 2 pounder AP without any caps penetrates about 85mm homogeneous at 0 yards and 66mm face-hardened.

One of the interesting things the book will discuss and have data on is German use of face-hardened armor on most tanks and SP vehicles, even during 1944 on Western Front. PzKpfw IVH, Panther A, Tiger II, StuG IIIG have face-hardened armor in critical places. PzKpfw III goes without saying.

Book will present, in our unhumble and exaggerated opinion, the best available single source on face-hardened armor penetration and tank protection in the world when it comes to Nord Afrika. Based on our researches and highly accurate speculation based on the tiniest fragments of data and imaginary flights of fancy, we have put together face-hardened penetration data for all major projectiles used by British and U.S., both AP and APCBC.

And we have assembled the best analysis in the universe (and beyond, if one counts other dimensions), for spaced armor and layered plates, which presents the single best resistance figures for PzKpfw IIIH (32mm over 30mm), PzKpfw IVG (30mm atop 50mm) and PzKpfw III with the 20mm spaced from 50mm face-hardened.

(CM shows PzKpfw IVG as 70mm front hull, an error that cries out for change!)

Now, who can argue or throw sarcastic comments at an honest assessment of our essentially perfect and all-encompassing work? 30 years in the making, months in the writing, hours from publication. And minutes until I send this post in to CM. And seconds until I think of more trash talk to throw your way.

And not to be outdone, we have exceeded past claims for 75mm HE fired from Sherman 75mm and German 75L24, which merely had it besting 90mm and 88mm HE in effectiveness (accuracy against ground points and fragment generation). All of this, and more, is in the book.

This book will dramatically change the scope and content of armor research and day dreams at work, and we urge you all to strongly consider jumping on the band wagon before it leaves for points unknown (something like the Twilight Zone). Your assessment of German tanks will never be the sane, ah, I meant same, again.

[rexford]

Oops! Forgot to say that the major German tanks in Nord Afrika had face-hardened frontal armor, like PzKpfw IIIG-L and IVF-G.

So having face-hardened penetration data for Allies is a must. One simply can't live without it if they game North Africa.

[rexford]

Bumpity bump bump.

Had to do this to get thread back to number one again.

[Wesreidau]

*is scared and cries for mommy*

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I'm suitably impressed Lorrin. It sounds like your "baby" is about to be born and you're certainly coming across as the proud father. Well done. :cool:

Regards

Jim R.

[ScoutPL]

For God's sake, WHY?

[Viceroy]

Rexford,

best of luck with your new book

Who is this book aimed at? Is it only for hard core grogs and AFV experts? Will it be of use to the average CM player? I generally base my choice of units on broad rules of thumb, would such detailed info as contained in your book help me? Thanks in advance, Viceroy

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScoutPL:

For God's sake, WHY?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ScoutPL is obviously still traumitised by the election of George Bush!

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScoutPL:

For God's sake, WHY?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he is refering to why was William Shatner Picked to host the Iron Chef.

[John Kelly]

Lorrin,

I plan to use this book when I play WWII miniatures (20mm). I also role-play and believe the book will come in handy there as well. As for the implications of the book with CM, it is doubtful the average player (self included) will consult it.

[kipanderson]

Rexford, hi,

For me this is close to sleepless nights stuff. Cracking under the strain of waiting for the book. Do not know which I am looking forward to most, CM2 or your book.

I clearly have a personality disorder.

All the best,

Kip.

[Ari Maenpaa]

Rexford,

Great news!

Your work has been awaited.

What about the hundreds of forthcoming questions? Where are you going to answer to them?

Keep up the great work.

Ari

[gunnergoz]

Rexford,

Where and how can I place an order for your book?

[MrSpkr]

*** looks around ***

Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore . . .

[Paul Lakowski]

I too am patiantly awaiting the book , how much for us grunts!

Don't wait for the Russian AP Vs Facehardened armor stuff , just publish it and offer a volume two later with updates!

[rexford]

Book is all about armor and penetration and hitting things. Nice drawings and graphs and tables and plenty of numbers, which may show why the root of numbers is "numb".

If basing broad decisions on silly little millimeters is not your cup of tea, this may not be for you.

The book is sort of a reference on penetration data and armor stats, and how to calculate armor resistance for comparison to penetration data.

And why T34's blow open so easy when the armor thickness and angle is so good. The T34 front hull, 45mm at 60° slope from vertical, actually provides 20% more resistance than the Tiger driver plate based on calculations that only consider thickness and angle.

How can this be? Say it ain't so!

That's when armor hardness steps in and Mister T34 tips his hat (has the turret thrown off after a hit) to Tigers, and Panthers, and Marders, and 75mm Pak, and whatever else hits it within some pretty impressive ranges.

Same for Sherman. 50.8mm at 56° from vertical, about 20% more resistance than Tiger 100mm plate. But along comes flaws and the resistance goes way down, like Mister T34.

If you like to crunch numbers a little or a lot, this book would be good.

The problem is how to accept payment and how to mail the thing. The book will be between 25 and 30 American dollars postpaid. An international money order costs how much? 11 American dollars, maybe.

So the book would cost about 38 american dollars for 200 pages (100 pages but double sided). 10 point font so plenty of words per page, or numbers, or whatever.

If you don't like to read the graphs and tables can be used and figured out without being chained to a desk for endless hours and days.

Book is bound but not hard binding.

I would appreciate comments, input and suggestions on payment methods. If we accept checks in foreign currencies there is a payment on this end.

Then we'll decide and post order info.

Thanks for responses.

[rexford]

I posted some graphs from the book on the Saumur site at

http://musee-des-blindes.intranets.com/login.asp?link=

Look under book update thread.

Slope effect graphs for AP rounds against armor sloped at 0° to 60° from vertical, as function of T/D ratio.

Used this info to show that 122mm AP could not penetrate Panther glacis with good quality armor. And this is what Russians found when IS-2 tanks first went into combat. Lots of bounces. All the time.

Then they found that penetrations would occur inside 650m range with AP ammo. Armor quality varied a lot, quality factor is not a constant for Panther glacis.

Flaws in Panther armor reduce armor resistance by quite a bit.

Saumur site has some of our results on this. The Yahoo! Tankers site has our table of contents for book and one slope effect curve for AP rounds (no caps of any type).

I will be posting the book table of contents on Saumur tonight, in about ten minutes.

[Simon Fox]

Wot's going on? I am confused, things have been upended. Rexford almost volubly warbling? Positively effuse! Speaking in the first person? Have the entities fused?

I would be interested to see what your little book has to say on face hardened armour. Do you have data on which plates on which vehicles? I would be interested to know what you think the implications are for CM? My understanding is that currently CM treats all as RHA? Did the western allies mostly use APCBC?

Would this have much effect on CM2? Did the Russians use APCBC much?

[rexford]

Many German tanks met in France used face-hardened armor, and our book identifies armor by type as well as thickness and angle. Allies use APCBC in France almost exclusively, little or no AP fired by anybody.

Russians fire rounds without armor piercing caps, which may be reason why Germans stayed with face-hardened armor through late 1944. Russian penetration drops against face-hardened armor.

CM and CM2 implications?

All armor on German tanks is not homogeneous, so need two sets of penetration figures. Actually need four in CM2, cause Russians fire AP and APBC from many guns, both without caps and each having drastically different slope effects.

Some panzers use homogeneous armor in some areas and face-hardened in others. See the complication to do it right?

CM2 would also have to use random choice to determine if tanks carried AP or APBC, since early IS-2 tanks appear to often carry one or the other.

122mm AP can't penetrate good Panther glacis at any range, 122mm APBC can at good range. Initial Russian tests and combat show that 122mm AP gets no penetrations. Then they meet poor Panther armor and some penetrations occur with regularity.

So CM and CM2 need to randomize Panther glacis armor quality, rest of Panther tends to be good quality so quality factors change going from glacis to rest of tank.

122mm APBC penetration against poor Panther glacis is way beyond 2500m.

Some of these things are not as simple as they seem. 17 pounder APCBC penetrates more face-hardened than homogeneous, smaller rounds penetrate about the same or less face-hardened.

U.S. 76mm APCBC has collapsible nose and isn't so good as might be expected against face-hardened.

Our book presents penetration data against face-hardened and homogeneous armor, where data is available or can be reasonably estimated.