Triggerhappy Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Whyle reading buddy's thread "Any of you CM fans ex/current military?" I was wondering how many of you CM addicts think of yourselfs as pacifists and like tanks and guns only in bits and bytes? Although I'm totally into WW2 weaponry (especially German "Wunderwaffen"), war games and combat sims I consider myself being a pacifist. When it was time for me to serve in the German army I chose civil service instead. I just can't stand orders... ------------------ Rührt euch! CMPFCICM2 - Combat Mission Players for Campaigns in Combat Mission 2 - Join us! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt.Tom Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Well I'm not a pacifists but I do wonder sometimes what makes people (myself included) so fascinated by something so violent and terrible, (i.e. war), probably the worst thing any person ever has to go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciks Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I like to give orders, that's because i'm playing CM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 While I can't claim to be a pacifist I aspire to it. I find an interest in military history and AFV's does not mean you think killing is swell. My interest stems from trying to understand what motivates a person in combat to do fight rather than run. Why a small group of determined men will give there all for a cause (even a bad one). Wargaming for me is not only a study of tactic and doctrine but also the pyschology of combat. Besides, it's really cool, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Not an easy question, but I certainly have no love for something that centers on killing and destruction. Life is short and and filled with enough pain to go around without making it worse through armed conflict. While war can show people at their most innovative, courageous, and self-sacrifcing, it's still one of the most ignoble, pathetic, and foolhardy human endeavors. That said, I'm enough of a realist to see that the peace and freedom I enjoy and prefer to war would readily be shattered by force if it weren't for a strong military and civil (police) defense. ------------------ When men are inhuman, take care not to feel towards them as they do towards other humans. --Marcus Aurelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciks Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 As stated one member of this board (don't remember, who), CM is a chess with guns. I mean, a good dose of logic and thinking is needed to win the game (wich is good)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I consider myself a pacifist. Believing war and killing and violence to be wrong doesn't make it any less interesting. I've come to CM through an interest in military history and strategy gaming. -John ------------------ sometimes i'd like to kick your f-ing head but i guess you're just a human too -EMBRACE, "SAID GUN" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rollstoy Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Playing wargames should give you enough knowledge about war to turn you into a pazifist! For example, it shows quite clearly that in war, death is random! No matter how skilled you are, the next artillery barrage can extinguish you. Furthermore, how many times did the fight for a victory location in CM result in its destruction? Then what was the point of capturing it in the first place? And how many times did you have to sacrifice men to save others. What if you were one of the former group in reality. Not to mention all the cruelties done to civilians, which fortunately are not depicted in CM. No, all in all, I think I do not want to participate in a battle as portrayed in CM, nor one in real life. Guess that makes me a pazifist?!? Regards, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 My friend and I were only just discussing how lucky we are to be in a generation (and geographic location) that hasn't had to test itself on the field of battle (both of us are 30). I've always been fascinated by the tools and the psychology of war, but I can assure you that neither of us would be too keen on being an active participant. Would I like to try shooting a Bren or an MP44? Well sure. But at some beer bottles - not a human being. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Originally posted by Pvt.Tom: Well I'm not a pacifists but I do wonder sometimes what makes people (myself included) so fascinated by something so violent and terrible, (i.e. war), probably the worst thing any person ever has to go through. War is the ultimate human endeavor. There is no other corrdinated task that huamns attempt that is more completely engrossing and all encompassing. It is fascinating because as humans there is nothing that brings out the best and worst in human nature as effectively as war. What do people mean in this cotext by the word "pacifist"? I always thought it meant someone who was opposed to war under any and all circumstances. I am certainly opposed to war in principle, but realize that given human society it is sometimes sadly inevitable, and do not oppose the practical use of force when necessary. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Kind of depends how you define pacifism. Is it acceptable to defend yourself under attack? How about your country? How about doing the defense by attacking first? How about just conquering the world to prevent all wars? My line goes somewhere out there. No, I don't consider myself pacifist, but I'm more peace-loving than some some self-proclaimedpacifists I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I believe Carl Sagan answered some of those questions about why humankind is the way it is, at least for me, in his book "The Dragons of Eden". "...we wage "modern" wars on civilian populations with a toll so terrible we are, most of us, are afraid to consider it very deeply. Often such mass murders are justified by racial or nationalistic redefinitions of our opponents as less than human" - "The Dragons of Eden" ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crank_GS Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I think Jeff H says it best. Pacifism is defined as "no war, at any cost". ("One who opposes war, usually under all circumstances." Funk and Wagnall's Standard Dictionary) When circumstances call, and outside aggression warrants it, there are times when it is less moral to sit by than to go and fight. I believe, reading personal accounts of old soldiers, that the most strongly opposed to war are those very soldiers. ------------------ Capt. Byron Crank, US Army [This message has been edited by Crank_GS (edited 01-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triggerhappy Posted January 24, 2001 Author Share Posted January 24, 2001 Originally posted by Crank_GS: I think Jeff H says it best. Pacifism is defined as "no war, at any cost". ("One who opposes war, usually under all circumstances." Funk and Wagnall's Standard Dictionary) When circumstances call, and outside aggression warrants it, there are times when it is less moral to sit by than to go and fight. That certainly is the best definition of the term pacifism that I've ever read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 People have often commented to me if I'm so into military history why didn't I join the military or why don't I own any firearms? I reply that just because a research scientist is interested in studing diseases that doesn't mean he wants to actually CATCH them! Studying history sometimes has about the same morbid fascination as slowing down as you pass a car wreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I can't claim to be a pacifist by the definition above (i.e. "no war at any cost"), but I certainly see war as a last resort that any decent morality requires us to avoid where possible. Of course, it's the "where possible" part that is so debatable. My story is probably not unusual. As a kid and a teen, I was very attracted to the power and glory that seemed attached to war and struggle. As I grew older and my politics moved towards the left, I became more suspicious of that so-called glory. At present, I suppose I'm what you might call a liberal cynic: willing to support the use of force where necessary to prevent a greater wrong (mass-murder or slavery, for instance), but suspicious of black-and-white (or hidden economic) justifications for state violence. The most crucial argument against war is that, in the modern world at least, war's horror is much more likely to be inflicted on the innocent than on the guilty. That is, we may go to war against The Evil Dictator, but it's The Evil Dictator's hapless subjects (civilians and children, most of them) who will suffer the misery that we dump on EvilDictatorLand. And that's real misery, misery for which we are responsible, not TV misery or "just somebody else's problem." Until we develop a good workaround for this problem, I'll remain suspicious of the military option. And yet I remain fascinated with military history and with the nuts and bolts of modern warfare, especially World War 2. There is a great deal of human character packed into the experience of war, and I can't help but be fascinated by the sight of it. Thankfully, I get to experience it all as games or fiction rather than on a real battlefield. Plus, like others here, I love to give orders and blow up tanks. Martyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I wouldn't say that I am a pacifisct. I would rather that there were never any wars on the planet, or that there never are (even though it would have resulted in no CM!). There is never a GOOD war, only a NECESSARY war. The problem with hardcore pacifiscts is that they think that there are just EVIL wars, and the problem with some militarists is that if their nation fights a war it is a GOOD war. I believe that for nations there exist only two types of wars, EVIL and NECESSARY. EVIL is when a nation is overly aggressive without a sufficient threat to their sovereignty to warrant war (ie. no immediate invasion, or economic strangulation resulting in deaths). NECESSARY war is when your nation is facing these prospects and the only way to assure that they will be avoided is through war. NECESSARY wars are also when ones neighbour (near or far) is experiencing the same thing and this state goes to war in their aid. Unfortunately, NECESSARY wars can overlap, where each nation is actually fighting a NECESSARY war. It comes down to a matter of realizing that in war there is no real good vs. evil, only politics vs. politics. Why did WWI erupt? Politics. Why did WWII erupt? Politics. Not saying that just politicians are to blame, but, politics are just a way of expressing the general will of a nation. [This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 01-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I worked in some area in wartime ... I hate war, I hate violence, I hate weapons, but I love wargames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Nothing truly important is ever settled in this world until one man is ready and willing to kill another over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Not at all true: you think all human philosophical and religious inquiries have been solved only by militarists? Also, you should read about India's liberation from the British. *** As an aside, I think one of the basic problems with war, outside the obvious death, suffering, and destruction, is that it contravenes or undermines the basic foundations (or at least comfortable illusions) of our daily existence. Societies and their prevailing systems of religion, philosophy, politics, and law center on the foundational belief that life is inherently valuable and worth preserving and protecting at great cost. War, on the other hand, suddenly claims that life (at least of the enemy) is not only worthless, but should actively be exterminated. Humans become inconsequential overnight. (The same irony obviously comes into play with animal rights, capital punishment, slavery, abortion, etc.) Regardless of whether one already holds such an abstract assertion about the nature of the universe, claiming that human life is largely inconsequential, in practice it's almost invariably a different matter. Life may be nasty, brutish, and short, in such a person's eyes, but they sure as heck hope theirs is pleasant, comfortable, and long. ------------------ When men are inhuman, take care not to feel towards them as they do towards other humans. --Marcus Aurelius [This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 01-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I am. I hate guns and violence, and would never dream of striking someone or using a gun. I'm glad there are games like Half-Life and CM that allow me to vent my frustrations without hurting anyone. So there, you people who want to ban violent video games! ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ so many games...so little time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I love weapons and hate violence and that shouldn't be confusing. I am not a pacifist - sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Like defend yourself. I, as a "gun-enthusiast", love to fire my weapons...however, I cringe at the thought of ever having to use one on another human being. I have a feeling that most gun owners feel the same way (as do most who have ever served in any military at any time). Those who love war and violence are sick, but most just do what they have to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I remember an oral history I did a while back. This is part of the transcript, about halfway through, where the gentleman in question pulled out some very deep and eloquent stuff: "When you walk through a village that snoopy has just leveled to the ground, and see a women who has no head with her arms stretched out to her child who has no body, you start to realize that all those war games we played as kids suck. Now maybe they trained us to survive in a time and place where people you don't know are shooting at you for reasons you cannot understand, but basically, in the Nam, everyone with a rifle was a pacifist at heart. I saw a new guy to our platoon, who already had "**** the green machine" on his flak vest -- even though he was fresh off theboat and weighed twenty pounds more than the rest of us, suddenly sit down. No sound, no reason we could tell right away, he was dead. Turns out a 5-5-6 at the end of its flight path, fired maybe two kilometers away, found just the right spot to enter his brain and kill him. Not even enough blood to write home about. Dead. I cannot remember his name, but I am sure someone does. I remember one time we were tearing apart this village, breaking everything. Some of the guys were kicking the village elder in the ass asking in what must have been horrible Viet(namese) where the guns were, while the El-Tee (Lieutenant) kept his rifle on a group of women and children just in case. At that moment in my life I was ready to shave my head, put on the prayer beads, and join a real Oregon cult. Maybe change my name to Marimba. Imagine what it takes for an Eagle Scout who volunteered for Vietnam to start thinking thoughts like that." That was one of the best interviews I ever did. Just FYI -- Doing oral histories is no great skill. If you know anyone get them to write down on paper that they agree to have their story made available to the public, then sit down with a tape recorder that has a good lavalier mic and interview them. A camcorder works also if you have a mic, and if you get a new DV camcorder then it is the best because it is easy to get that into a computer and burn it to CD / DVD. Some of my most profound insights into the human condition came from talking to veterans who were "really there", especially if they trust you enough not to tell silly special forces - seal stories and to just say what they actually did. [This message has been edited by Slapdragon (edited 01-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I'm definitely against the use of violence. But like someone said, sometimes it could be worse to just stand by and watch. I just like wargames because I'm male. It's like with girls and horses. They never grow out of it. regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattlingBigBob Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 I'm not a pacifist. Some people just won't listen to reason. -------------------------------------- Do the bad guys think that they are the good guys and that the good guys are the bad guys? - My son Zach at age 3 (he's older now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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