Maximus Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 In light of the recent JgTiger thread, how's about a preference towards the JgPanther over the JgTiger for a highly armored german TD? I haven't done any tests, but I would assume the JgPanther is faster and a bit more nimble than the JgTiger. But then the arguement is why pick a JgPanther over a regular Panther? The JgPanther has an 88mm gun with better penetration values over the Panther's 75mm. The JgPanther has 55 degree sloped armor all the way up the front hull while the Panther only has it on its lower hull and not the turret, obviously. So any other ideas? ------------------ "Live by the sword, live a good LOOONG life!"-Minsc, BGII "Boo points, I punch."--Minsc, BGII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 I've been able to kill JP's with 75mm guns, frontally. I haven't been able to kill a JT with a 75mm gun, from any angle. O've even struggled killing a Panther with a 75mm. I've killed the 4 JPs I've come across but haven't killed the 2 JTs or the 3 Panthers. Not a large sample I know, but too much of a coincidence given the paper specs. ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 6, 2001 Author Share Posted January 6, 2001 I just did a test of 8 JgPanthers vs 8 Sherman VC Fireflys. Result: 8 dead Fireflys to 2 dead JgPanthers. Test map: Gentle slopes, farmland, light tree coverage. All but 3 Shermans were toasted on the first turn. ------------------ "Live by the sword, live a good LOOONG life!"-Minsc, BGII "Boo points, I punch."--Minsc, BGII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juardis: I've been able to kill JP's with 75mm guns, frontally. I haven't been able to kill a JT with a 75mm gun, from any angle. O've even struggled killing a Panther with a 75mm. I've killed the 4 JPs I've come across but haven't killed the 2 JTs or the 3 Panthers. Not a large sample I know, but too much of a coincidence given the paper specs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What 75mm gun? Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: The JgPanther has an 88mm gun with better penetration values over the Panther's 75mm. The JgPanther has 55 degree sloped armor all the way up the front hull while the Panther only has it on its lower hull and not the turret, obviously. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If the JgPanther's 88 is the same as the Tiger's, it has less penetrating power than the Panther's high-velocity 75 mm gun, and presumably its only advantage over the Panther lies in thicker frontal armor (but if it was equipped with the later higher velocity 88, then...). In addition, the Panther has a fast turret whereas the JgPanther does not have a turret at all and is therefore very slow to turn to its flank. Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lah Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 You can kill a JagdPanther with a top hit from a British 3in mortar. JagdTiger wins hands down, I've not tried it in CM yet but that's the sort of bugger you stick on a dominating hill, and dominate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Two Jagdpanthers vs. 16 Churchills VI or VII. Result - lots of dead Churchils, one or two dead Jagdpanthers, best game result possible for the Allies a draw. Map: light woods, gentle slopes, village. Happened (roughly) to 9th RTR. Never saw a Churchill kill a JP frontally, tried a lot of times. Either me as JPs (boring) or as UK (frustrating ) In Bovington I heard a UK tank vet story telling of an encounter of their squadron with two JPs. 13 (or thereabouts) UK tanks shot up, the JPs then added insult to injury by motoring parallel to their line in full view and broad daylight before diappearing. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLord Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Heh, as you would expect I'll go with the Jagdtiger. I've managed to take out quite a few JPs w/ Sherman 75s by using flanking tactics. Can't remember if I have gotten a frontal kill though. Much, much less success versus JTs. Whomever said "They are a tough nut to crack", hit the nail on the head when it comes to JTs. Hey, but I did knock out one's gun with an AT gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri: If the JgPanther's 88 is the same as the Tiger's, it has less penetrating power than the Panther's high-velocity 75 mm gun, and presumably its only advantage over the Panther lies in thicker frontal armor (but if it was equipped with the later higher velocity 88, then...)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The Jagdpanther carries the 88mm L71, WWII's finest tank killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStrike Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Germanboy, try the same type of test vs Churchill VIII's, they are quite capable of killing Panthers, Jagdpanthers, Hetzers etc frontally with that 95mm 'c' round...only problem is the low velocity means the accuracy ain't the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStrike Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Oh yes, and if the other guy shows up with Super Pershings, you're much better having a Jagdtiger in your pocket then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theron Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LuckyStrike: Germanboy, try the same type of test vs Churchill VIII's, they are quite capable of killing Panthers, Jagdpanthers, Hetzers etc frontally with that 95mm 'c' round...only problem is the low velocity means the accuracy ain't the best. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Churchill VIII's are really good against almost all German armor if they have the 'C' rounds. The game seems to give them between 1-9 rounds randomly in QBs. Since most of my tanks only seem to kill 1-2 enemy tanks this usually isn't too important. I've had good luck with at least verteran crews and engaging in tank battles at 500m or less. 1000m range battles and longer cause too much ammo loss, which is important when you only have a few potent rounds. Theron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 As an all around tank killer the Jagdpanther's the best. Good enough mobility, good armor, and a fine gun to knock out anything. Of course when a Super Pershing rolls around, that maybe more problematic but I've had good enough success killing them with the Panther and JgPz IV's 75mm guns. Of course, on the defensive, the Jagdtiger would be a cornerstone against Allied armor. I have yet to have a JT get knocked out. Only "losing" one by having a Churchill's lucky shot knock out the gun. The allied player seeing no return fire from my JT promptly threw everything at it (I believe 6 tanks came out of the woodworks). I just had it reverse into cover of the town where my Pioneers where in hiding. Sure enough my friend's bloodlust to kill the "wounded Tiger" got me victory. He hastily sent in his armor to be knocked out by the Pioneers/Panzerschreck. Too expensive of a bait though. ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 I choose the JagdPanther ( beautiful name btw ) as much as possible because...i love the tank, its my favourite. And,its a good tank too imho Haven't lost one yet ( only 1 month into CM ) Did a test with JagdTiger versus the Super Pershing ( flat terrain, range 600 meters ) The Pershing won 4 out of 5. WOW,what a killer tank is the SP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 One extra benefit to the JagdTiger, every damn tank facing it pops smoke and reverses. This makes it really difficult to orchestrate an attack. More of a psychological weapon than a killing machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Yeide Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 At least Jagdpanthers were mortal. According to the A/A report of the US 743rd Tank Battalion, for example, Able company Shermans (75mm) encountered the Jagdpanther for the first time in the war in Pattern, Germany on 22 November 1944. The Shermans killed three with no losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: What 75mm gun? Jeff <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry, 75mm tank guns firing AP shells. Shermans and Churchills mostly. [This message has been edited by Juardis (edited 01-06-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juardis: Sorry, 75mm tank guns firing AP shells. Shermans and Churchills mostly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hitting a very exposed lower hull, presumably. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfe: Hitting a very exposed lower hull, presumably. - Chris<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> could be, I don't remember. I do remember one in particular. A JP was on the high ground about 400m away and my Churchill crocodile was in a town. 1st turn they spot each other. 2nd shot from my croc killed the JP. He was backing up fast at the time too. Lucky shot? Probably. But the fact remains my croc killed the JP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 My first and only encounter with a Jagdtiger was against the AI in a QB. I was on the defense and had plenty of good infantry and a nice defensible position, of course the purchasing AI wouldn't leave me without a tank so it gave me a nice little Stuart :/ . Boy did I crap in my drawers when my picket line saw that JT. But after the enemy attack developed I sent my stuart on a fast run down a flank , JT targeted but couldnt lay on the gun fast enough. The stuart ended up behind a church and behind the JT, we played a 5 turn game of hide and seek I eventually got extremely lucky and immobilized the JT! After that I positioned the stuart right behind the JT and it exhausted it's AP ammo bouncing off shells on it's posterior. Eventually the JT crew got tired off the little pinging sounds and abandoned the tank. I hope to never see one again, especially in the hands of a human opponent! ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Hmm, lets see: Jagdpanther vs PzKw V Jagdpanther has about same mobility, same or better armour, slightly better AP, definately better HE. PzKw V has slightly better ROF and a turret, but the turret is slow and doesn't add much value. (Tactical value of turret might have increased with the latest CM version though.) I'd go for the Jagdpanther. Jagdpanther vs Jagdtiger The JT rules for static combat and defence, while the JP is better suited for an offensive. Draw/either way? Cheers Olle ------------------ Srategy is the art of avoiding a fair fight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob d Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 I finished a History 300 course earlier in the year - included in the selected readings was an academic article that referred to the JagdTiger as having the first operational thermal sights, going on to say they weren't improved upon siginficantly until the 1960's. I don't know if I can find the article again or not - has anyone else heard of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil/1 Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 Don't Know if this is true or not but I read somewhere (can't remember where) that one Jagdtiger sat on a hill was responsable for knocking out an entire regiment of allied tanks in the Ardennes in 1944. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 In the book "Schwere Jagdpanzer" Spielberg / Doyle / Jentz paints a uniformly depressing picture of the Jagdtiger. It tells a story of a vehicle with endless breakdowns and problems, that had no more effect on the war effort than to put a further strain on rail transport, repair and supply units. Despite the grand hopes pinned on it by less agile minds The only conceivable circumstances under which it could have succeed would have been if the war had been fought on a huge slab of concrete with no air power and a break every night for maintenance It should never have left the drawing board. M. P.S. Seems the first time it (some 3-6) went into battle was in support of 17. SS PzG Div. in operation "Nordwind", [This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 01-16-2001).] [This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 I find the JagdTiger very vulnerable from the side. In ASL once I parked a JT before an intersection, behind a stone wall "V". Behind me were stone buildings, and my opponent never had a chance to put infantry in those buildings. The JT took many direct hits, but they never took it out. The JT had a nice line of sight down two streets, it was beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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