COMBAT MISSIONS: Tiger's Mods @ CMs

[Shipmonkey25]

Who was the Modder that left because of a bootleg CM copy?

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shipmonkey25:

Who was the Modder that left because of a bootleg CM copy?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's not bring that back up. It was a long time ago and the situation was more complicated than what has been suggested here.

[Battlefront.com]

Lord General MB:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Tiger was flamed some during that thread.... I was there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't there, but I saw several people, on BOTH sides of the argument, flaming each other. Ironically, Tiger was the first one flame. I agree with my parents' philosphy of "it doesn't matter who started it" line of reasoning, but when one person cries foul against another... it does have a bearing on how one treats the cry. Yelling fire in a crowded theater and then getting tramppled should not be ground for the yelling person to sue for damages suffered.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't know if it would warrent leaving and deleting all his mods, but if he feels that is does, well thats his dissions to make.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. However, it is not the responsibilty of people here to treat each other like fragile eggs. Yes, civility is a requirement here, but as I have said above... disagreement is also a requirement. If someone can't handle being disagreed with, then they shouldn't be here. I am not upset with someone who decides that this is not the place for them, but I am also not going to blame anybody else for that person's decisions.

Steve

[Spook]

Please forward the following to Tiger from me, Manx:

"Tiger:

Manx has brought attention on the BTS forum that you are requesting for your CM graphics mods to be deleted at various CM support sites. For the moment, I am refraining from judging you personally for your deletion request, as I do not know you personally. But I am regretful that you feel this to be a necessary action.

The infantry uniform mods I generated for CM, long ago, are certainly long past in quality and popularity to more recent efforts by various CM mod artists. Regardless, each time that I got an e-mail thanking me for providing the mod, it meant a great deal to me. It meant that to someone out there, I had helped a fellow wargamer to feel added immersion to an excellent & consistent wargame, of which today there are still damn few such as wargames.

It's ego in a way, but it's also the nature of the hobbyist. A hobbyist is inclined to share with his chosen community of fellow hobbyists.

Whenever I provided my mods, I did so with the understanding that I was providing to the public domain, and do not presume that I have property rights over these. (I never really had property rights to ANY of the CM graphics files in the first place anyway.) My sense of "mod ownership" stops at the point where due credit of authorship is given. Anyone can thus take such mods and make their own changes to match their own preferences.

By requesting to have your graphics mod work deleted, Tiger, you are punishing the CM gamer community as a whole for your personal disagreements with select CM forum contributors. The greater irony is that the ones most likely punished are future CM customers that haven't had the chance to see your work yet, because they are yet unawares to the CM support sites available.

I ask for you to reconsider your stance. If you choose not to create any further mods for the CM series, then that's understandable. But the enabler to all these mods is still the game itself that allows their usage. I personally feel that I've gotten far more value out of CM than the $45 that I paid for it. Have I repaid this added value back to Charles & Steve for their efforts? Or to the mod artists, CM support site sponsors, and freelance scenario designers? Not even CLOSE.

Regards,

Ed"

[DekeFentle]

I just perused the thread in question and if you call that flame, even mild flame, stay away from the PENG thread cause you wouldn’t last any longer than a butterfly in a bonfire. I’m sad in a way to hear of Tiger’s decision but his actions are way out of line with respect to the situation. I think I’ll take a swing at this moding thing, that way I can be recognized as artsy fartsy and have and excuse for my tantrums.

[Panzer_Meyer]

I don't blame tiger a bit. I don't think he left becuase of that one incident. People have been flming him before. For the mods he put out. some smart alec always came along and said the mods sucked an so and so. Tiger tried to improve it, but some people keep b*tching at him telling him the mods were poor. Most of the people saying this to tiger didn't even create mods.

He got pissed and left and stopped doing mods. So when the "blood" thread came around I think thats what finnaly made him leave. that was the final straw, IMO.

I don't blame ya Tiger. I don't have a problem with people DISCUSSING certain points of a topic. but some get carrid away and let their ego's fly and start calling other names.

[Chad Harrison]

almost all of tigers vehicle mods are on my computer, and its sad to see someone go with so much talent.

[Battlefront.com]

Rommel 22:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>People have been flming him before. For the mods he put out. some smart alec always came along and said the mods sucked an so and so. Tiger tried to improve it, but some people keep b*tching at him telling him the mods were poor. Most of the people saying this to tiger didn't even create mods.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Swap in "wargame" for "mod" and "BTS" for "Tiger" and you will see that there is little difference between us and Tiger in a public setting One either learns how to deal with less-than-polite feedback or crawl away into a cave. I think everybody here is happy we did not do the latter

A Golden Rule of Life - you can't make all the people happy all the time. So expect to get some "negative waves, man" Negative feedback, BTW, is an escential element of the creative process. Yeah, we would like all the feedback to be polite, but that is NEVER going to happen.

BTW, I put rude critics and blind suck-ups in the same class in terms of feedback value. Neither will help improve whatever it is you are working on. The former just gets you mad, the latter just strokes your ego. Neither are examples of good, critical feedback. However, if I have to be subjected to one more than the other...

Steve

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Big Time Software ]

[Chupacabra]

Wow, um, not to bring up the obvious, but after all, this is an internet BBS. The amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth associated with this whole affair seems more in line with someone keeling over dead, not someone saying that they don't want to post to an internet forum.

If someone gets seriously worked up about words on a screen...well, gee. I don't mean to sound condescencing or spiteful (though I'm sure someone will probably take me to task for saying this), but I'd have to have quite a lot of gin in me before getting upset about words on a screen.

[Scipio]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rommel22:

...some smart alec always came along and said the mods sucked an so and so...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, this ungrateful riffraff!!! I remember when I made my first graphic mod, someone just take it, revised it slightly and posted it again, without to be so friendly to ask or even inform me.

I wonder if the most people have an idea how much time it takes to make a good mod. They should be simply happy or shut up if they don't like it and make a better one. If they can.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]

[PeterNZer]

About Tiger's leave:

I'd rather like to see Fionn back.

<hr>

Comment:

If everybody would leave as a result of a thread like this, which contained a hot gust of wind (that some people mislabeled a 'flame') there wouldn't be too many people around. Userlame and Minimus alone would have felled a hundred...

[Priest]

Gee Steve I wish you would show a little more compassion. Tiger and Marco and many many many many others that have even made one mod have helped guide us to what is possible with this engine. CMBB's graphics are influenced by these mod artists. Charles in an article praises all the modmakers and scenario makers around. We are not just losing a contributor (which is bad) but we are now losing a leader. Again. And I think the most disturbing comment on this entire thread is the seperation of the MBT thread and the "outer forum". What the hell is that? We all belong to the forum and as such should support each other and discuss (and argue, not flame or fight) the two things we all love: CM and WWII. Like I said before the issues of elitism and holier than though attitude are really grating. Get over it!

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]

[Tiger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't. Tiger is the only one to blame for his actions since only Tiger can make decisions for Tiger. Therefore, if Tiger wants to be petty and "punish" the whole community because of a flamebait thread he started, I see no reason to find fault with others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flamebait thread I started?? I don't agree, Steve. I asked an innocent question about whether or not it would be possible to be able to mod the casualty kill markers and I got jumped on by the holier-than thou group that resides here with the blessing of BTS. Following this were various tactics of innuendo, browbeating, and patronization and false claims (mostly from snapdragon and Aitkens).

I'm sorry I didn't know or remember BTS's position on casualty kill-markers but I certainly don't think it required the response it got from some of the regulars on this forum who treat people like dirt to fulfill some need to feel superior on a forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Tiger drew first blood (using language that is against forum rules too), and although he did appologize for flaming Rett, it was clear that he was spoiling for a fight from the get go. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You couldn't be more wrong. Rett's funny reply was just that but I certainly didn't think it was a big deal. And you're right, I apologized b/c I thought my tone might be taken as too harsh, just as I took his previous post as being rather flippant on something I was asking seriously.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If he didn't have the skin thickness to accept the rather mild flamefest that resulted from the intollerant tone he set, then he shouldn't have started it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you may be right Steve but FYI but it really bothered me because I had taken a break from the forum for awhile, tired of all the pettiness that occurs, mostly from the same crowd, only to come back and post what I thought was a pretty harmless question.

I'm sorry I didn't know this had been discussed to death before or I couldn't remember....I don't think it deserved the going over that it received by the same people that do the same thing ad naseum.

You can look at the post and see who was really looking for a flame-fest (Aitken & co.)

As far as removing my mods I don't see what the big deal is. It hurts no one as there are more mods out there than you can shake a stick at and more always being made. Maybe I do need the closure.

To Aitken: You're wrong. I don't think like that. I don't require or need anyone's sympathy. Me posting a goodbye? I guess I should have just left and never said a word. Silly me for thinking there might be decent people left here who've got better things to do than feel morally and intellectually superior by these stupid arguments (like when saying that mods are eyecandy and therefore irrevelant, i.e. "therefore your question is irrevelant, go away". Then go on to argue how rationally superior your arguments are).

If this has been rehashed before why can't you just say so? And quit saying I already knew b/c I didn't or I wouldn't have bothered asking it.

-Tiger

ps~ I sent my request as an e-mail to Madmatt, Manx. I didn't ask for it to be made public. All I asked was if they could please remove my mods.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Tiger ]

[Slapdragon]

I want to commend, from the closed thread, a quote by Moriarity:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A part of the problem is attempting to communicate strongly held beliefs and positions using the written word. In this format there is no voice inflection, no eye contact, no cues as to what is "between the lines." (Side note: The various emoticons can impart some of this but only if the reader accepts them. Many do not, believing instead the author is using a smiley or winky to hide the dagger.)

For example, from the opening post (Disclaimer: Nothing is intended about Franko by choosing this particular statement and I am simply using it as an example).

quote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one on this board knows as much as they think they know, all could stand a bit more knowledge, and just about everyone could stand just a tad more civility.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this: A) a statement of well-reasoned observation, a statement of obvious truth and wisdom, C) a statement that the author thinks he is smarter than everyone else, D) a statement that the author has more smarts, more courteous manners and therefore is a better person than anyone who enters into a debate.

I think the answer is "B" with a little "A" thrown in, but another reader could take it another way.

How you view the written word depends on what you bring to the table. Do I, as the reader/recipient, take the words at face value or do I go looking for meaning in between the lines that may or may not be intended or exist? Do I categorically reject the statement because I saw Franko's name and didn't like or agree with what he has written elsewhere or because we have been on opposite sides in a flame war or debate and I have no respect for him? Am I just in a pissy, hypersensitive mood today and this just struck me wrong?

This happens a lot with e-mails, too. Sadly, we as society largely have lost the ability to argue a point without taking it personally.

In the days before TV (and no, I'm not that old), debate was a form of entertainment, an art form, if you will. The great debaters vehemently and emotionally argued positions based on clearly thought out reasoning and evidence. Lawyers will say some of the most outlandish, provocative things to further their case, but when it's over ... it wasn't personal.

In my side job as a firefighter/EMT, the chief of my department and others, myself included, often do not see eye to eye. He is of the sort who can get into a verbal donnybrook, complete with shouting, ingenious concoctions of cuss words, etc., and after it is done, buy you a drink at a bar. Why? Because it was business, nothing more, nothing less and definitely not personal. You may not agree with him, but you do respect that in him.

The Reader's Digest form of what I'm getting at is that before you respond to a perceived slight:

1. Take a quick look at different ways the post could be taken.

2. If you're going to enter the fray, argue the issue.

3. If both sides have made their points and neither is swayed, it's time to agree to disagree (or challenge the other guy to a game. A lot of respect can be regained over a good PBEM game of CM). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of this problem is in the education system of our country and others, where the ability to debate subjects (rhetorical skills) have been lost. I belong to a different CM forum with some people here, and it is interesting that there are never flames, but most of the people know how to develop arguments, communicate with others, and accept critique from the board.

The main issue to be dealt with is not why Tiger is leaving, which is his business no matter how public he wants to make it, but why people are incapable of having an intellectual conversation without resorting to flames (usually a sign of a poorly thought out position) and why someone discussing the history of the war scares so many people.

As for Tiger, I would like to read some of the flames against him that made him leave. The bodies thread was his own flames touching off sparks, but perhaps there is a kick Tiger thread out there that i have never seen.

[Priest]

HE's BACK!!!!!!

Tiger your mods are needed in the community as people join they need to see your work and realize how beautiful CMBO can be. Many believe that your work along with Marco's and Fernando's are the defining works of CM Modmaking. I have well over a gigabyte of downloaded zipped mods with no repeat. Yet when you look at the spreadsheet I keep with all my mods listed in use you will see the words Tiger, Marco, and Fernando throughout the vehicles and fortifications section. I have about as much choice in my personal library as anyone yet I choose yours. If we cannot have you insight or future mods (WHAT A CRUSHING BLOW FOR CMBB) then at least let us have the past because it does make a difference to a great deal of us!

Email me if you do not want to post and I would be happy to keep in contact or help persuade you that not everyone on this forum is bad (calstann@hotmail.com). Thanks Tiger

[Subvet]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

If someone takes out a book of matches and burns himself, do you blame the match company? I don't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't either, but a lot of people in the U.S. do. If we smoke cigarettes and get cancer we blame the tobacco companies. If we get shot by some gun toting bad guy we blame the gun manufacturers. If we go to a bar, get drunk, and then hurt ourselves or someone else the bar gets the blame. Actually this whole "Tiger" thing is a sign of the times!

Seriously though, I've seen this many times. Someone gets their feelings hurt or their ego bruised and they lash out in an childish way.

I was pretty much on Tiger's side in that thread. But I certainly don't like how he has acted lately. Maybe it was time for him to move on. I think this goes deeper than just that one thread. It was probably just the straw that broke the camels back as someone else has already said. When Ultima Online screwed me for the upteenth time, after playing for over three years, awhile back I quit the game and deleted everything related to it. If Tiger would have done something like that I'd have no problem with his actions. But to ask for the removal of all his mods for download was just being childish in my opinion.

[Joshik]

I am sorry to learn that Tiger won't be creating any more wonderful mods for CM.

Let me see if I understand what's happening here. Tiger is angry at the CM community for hurting him in that flame war, so he wants to pull his mods off of Manx's site. But the CM community, who loves Tiger's mods so much, has probably already loaded and installed them onto their machines. The new and soon-to-be-members of the CM community are the only ones who are going to be affected by the removal of Tiger's mods, since they haven't downloaded them yet. And they are the "innocent ones"... they certainly haven't done anything to Tiger.

So, it seems that removing the mods from Manx's site is a useless and wasted gesture. Should I vow to delete all the Tiger mods from my personal CM folder? And then e-mail a printout of the folder contents to Tiger, to prove they're gone?

I'm certainly not suggesting that MANX SHOULD IGNORE TIGER AND KEEP ALL THE MODS ON HIS SITE AS THEY ARE... I mean, what if lawyers got involved? I copyrighted my "Winter Dark Hoods mod" (c2001 Joshik), so if anyone does something to them that I don't like, or flames me, man... my lawyers will be all over you!

Heck, didn't all the @SL-related maps disappear after Hasbro voiced some complaints? You certainly can't find those around, can you??

Well, if Manx were to remove Tiger's mods, I would be sad. They are spectacular mods. But I would accept that course of action. I would never get on this board and publicly suggest that SOMEONE SIMPLY SHOULD CREATE A NEW SITE AND POST TIGER'S MODS, JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH @SL MAPS.

Isn't all this silly? Tiger, I love you. You do great great work. You are a modding machine, and have made CM even better than before. Now quit being nutty. You know you love creating mods, and you enjoy the accolades.

Besides, if your mods leave Manx's site, that will make my WINTER DARK HOODS mod that more prominent... I don't think I can handle any more stardom. When my mod was first released, I received endless phone calls and e-mails from CM'ers all over the world. Almost crashed the company's e-mail server. Fame is a rough road.

-Joshik

[Vanir Ausf B]

Score one for Babra

[Priest]

OH PUHLEASE

Slappy here is an idea! You obviously upset the man so issue an apology. Maybe you did not do anything wrong but the "manly" thing to do would to simply say "ya know what buddy I am sorry, I don't feel I did anything wrong but I never wanted you to leave"

See was that so hard instead of pulling some dialogue that can be viewed as demeaning. It does not matter what anyone says or states about discussion or argument what does matter is that someone was obviously hurt by an incident and you just passed up on an occasion to help heal it.

[Enoch]

Funny, and this thread from little over a month ago about how well everyone treated each other on this forum. Feh, it is somewhat interesting to watch people work themselves up into a lather full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Tiger wrote:

I asked an innocent question about whether or not it would be possible to be able to mod the casualty kill markers and I got jumped on by the holier-than thou group that resides here with the blessing of BTS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This kind of paranoia is the root of the whole problem. There are a fair few people on this board who can't distinguish the presentation of a dissenting opinion from "holier-than-thou browbeating". Just because some of us prefer to be rational and reasonable in what we post instead of returning a flame doesn't make us patronising.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Following this were various tactics of innuendo, browbeating, and patronization and false claims (mostly from snapdragon and Aitkens).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You continue to take no responsibility for the fact that it was you who contributed the most spiteful and inflammatory material to the thread. Apparently you did so because of your paranoia, not because anyone else actually did anything unreasonable. I think your attempts to blame others for your own intolerance are quite poor.

[tiborhead]

I think I can explain all this hostility that's been floating around here lately. Ahem... here goes... People are just a little moody because they're waiting for CM:B2B to come out. Seriously, I think that whole fiasco was just silly. As stated, it wasn't all that bad. Everyone overreacted, especially Tiger. Not that other parties didn't contribute to this mess, but as Steve said, he started it. The lesson to be learned

from all of this, I suppose, is that whenever tempers start to flare and you find yourself being lured into one of these flame wars, just stop for a minute. You know, smoke a ciggy, have a cup o coffee, pound down a few shots of vodka, whatever. Just don't let it get to you. I was a lurker here for a LONG time because a while ago (April 2000) I joined the forum and made the mistake of bringing up a pacific theater thread and immediately got slammed with replies such as

"DO A SEARCH, STUPID NEWBIE!!!!" and the like. Granted I should have used the search, but did I deserve that? Needless to say I was quite intimidated by this and was afraid to post any of my opinions. Now I just don't give a $#!^. This is sort of off topic, but I've seen a lot of this sort of thing lately.

Well, maybe all the tension and anger will dissipate when CM:B2B is released, and we'll return to our happy little family in no time.

[Scipio]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger:

Yes you may be right Steve but FYI but it really bothered me because I had taken a break from the forum for awhile, tired of all the pettiness that occurs, mostly from the same crowd, only to come back and post what I thought was a pretty harmless question.

I'm sorry I didn't know this had been discussed to death before or I couldn't remember....I don't think it deserved the going over that it received by the same people that do the same thing ad naseum.

You can look at the post and see who was really looking for a flame-fest (Aitken & co.)

As far as removing my mods I don't see what the big deal is. It hurts no one as there are more mods out there than you can shake a stick at and more always being made. Maybe I do need the closure.

To Aitken: You're wrong. I don't think like that. I don't require or need anyone's sympathy. Me posting a goodbye? I guess I should have just left and never said a word. Silly me for thinking there might be decent people left here who've got better things to do than feel morally and intellectually superior by these stupid arguments (like when saying that mods are eyecandy and therefore irrevelant, i.e. "therefore your question is irrevelant, go away". Then go on to argue how rationally superior your arguments are).

If this has been rehashed before why can't you just say so? And quit saying I already knew b/c I didn't or I wouldn't have bothered asking it.

-Tiger

ps~ I sent my request as an e-mail to Madmatt, Manx. I didn't ask for it to be made public. All I asked was if they could please remove my mods.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Tiger ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tiger, people like Aitken and Slappy are absolutly not intersted in your opinion, arguments or any word that you say (write). They are only interested to see themself as winner in a discussion. Because of that (in this case it was Slappy) I was also already close to leave this forum. It is so unbelievable boring to discuss something with that kind of people.

[THumpre]

Hey, in the unsolicited opinion of a self avowed "slackass lurker" I agree with all those who have said that this action is a childish example of "I'll take my toys and go home.." on the part of Tiger. Sheesh, the guys mods were good but there are way more talented artists out there who don't throw themselves into a pout when people disagree with them. Like I said, just my opinion, yours may be different.

[CJMello]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As far as removing my mods I don't see what the big deal is. It hurts no one as there are more mods out there than you can shake a stick at and more always being made.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then there are players out there who like your work and always looked foward to it, as with the other modders. Everyone must be their own man and you are well within your rights to make up your mind and your own paths to travel.