Ales Dvorak Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 CM with http://www.fireandfury.com/battlepics.shtml Enjoy! :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 I feel sorry for the people in the pics. Apparently, they have not heard about CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 Now play nice! Miniature gaming has many benefits that even CM does not. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dalem: Now play nice! Miniature gaming has many benefits that even CM does not. -dale<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You mean like having to pretend that your tanks and men are actually moving? Or maybe the fact that you have to spend hours and hours building your map when the computer could do it for you in seconds. I suppose it's also much more fun to knock down a building with your hand pretending your Tiger tank just smashed it to death. Yes, I'm thinking of making the switch right now. Hold on while I get my leisure suit and I'll join you back in the 70's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 CM is better. And cheaper too...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: You mean like having to pretend that your tanks and men are actually moving? Or maybe the fact that you have to spend hours and hours building your map when the computer could do it for you in seconds. I suppose it's also much more fun to knock down a building with your hand pretending your Tiger tank just smashed it to death. Yes, I'm thinking of making the switch right now. Hold on while I get my leisure suit and I'll join you back in the 70's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, there's actual human contact, for one thing, and painting the miniatures themselves is a great hobby. Then there's the collecting aspect of it. And I guess the other things are creativity and imagination, which I guess did start dying after the 70s. Remember, I didn't say one was better than the other, I just said they both have benefits. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 CM party at my house. BYO creativity, imagination, and beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: You mean like having to pretend that your tanks and men are actually moving?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As opposed to pretending each 3 man squad on the screen is actually 10 men? Or that the guy carrying the tripod on his back actually represents a crew carrying the tripod in pieces? Or the anti-tank guns with the spread trails being mysteriously towed...??? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Or maybe the fact that you have to spend hours and hours building your map when the computer could do it for you in seconds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And such wonderful maps they are! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I suppose it's also much more fun to knock down a building with your hand pretending your Tiger tank just smashed it to death. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As opposed to the stock graphics in CM where a two story building becomes a flat square? I am not a miniatures gamer, but I certainly wouldn't make fun of anyone who was. CM relies just as heavily on imagination, and in some ways moreso, than miniatures gaming. At least in miniatures, you can put tac signs on your tanks and know which is which at a glance - you put 311 on the side of a Tiger skin, suddenly all your Tigers are in the same platoon... [ 05-27-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dalem: Well, there's actual human contact, for one thing, and painting the miniatures themselves is a great hobby. Then there's the collecting aspect of it. And I guess the other things are creativity and imagination, which I guess did start dying after the 70s. Remember, I didn't say one was better than the other, I just said they both have benefits. -dale<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IMO, Dale nails it with the social aspect of minature wargaming. Actually, I like both. Painting my (Napoleonic) figures are rather meditative. Creating a real nice looking battlefield is cool too. I found out about CM from a good minatures gaming friend. Now, we play CM every weekend by way of TCP because he is stationed in Europe. We would still wargame with minatures if he was in town. Minature wargaming and CM -they're both great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan: CM party at my house. BYO creativity, imagination, and beer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'd like to see where all the tanks and panzers end up with a drunk crew on the battlefield... "Smith, drive straight you fool! We're on a bridge damnit! SMIIIITH!!!" *splash* One less very heavy, quite sinkable Sherman Jumbo left in the U.S. Army. *doh!* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lempereur Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 I am an avid miniature gamer. I find miniature gaming enjoyable for the fact that you can have as many players as you want and you can limit the gaming to your imagination. They have figures and terrain for just about every period and theather in WW2. I feel the painting and research is also half the fun. I recently converted a minitures game to CM to see how it worked. The results were roughly equal. Someday I am going to combine the 2. One cyber-player can try and break through into Arnhem using CM via TCP/IP and if he does the reinforcements arrive on the table. Meanwhile the other players are playing on a nice model of the actual battlefield with beautifully painted figures and vehicles. I consider miniature gaming true 3-D. There is a lot to be said about CM. If multiplayer included 2-12 people and any theater and vehicle in WW2 could be set up in a scenario and a full campaign program was included then I would consider giving up WW2 miniatures. Until then I am having fun seeing the look of disgust on my opponents face when the 116th Panzer division arrives to trash his Shermans in our Aachen miniatures campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dalem: Now play nice! Miniature gaming has many benefits that even CM does not. -dale<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So true! With miniatures I can launch a full scale assault on the house cat. Lets see CM top that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warmaker: I'd like to see where all the tanks and panzers end up with a drunk crew on the battlefield...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you want to play with drunk tank crews, check out CC2. They can never drive in a straight line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: As opposed to the stock graphics in CM where a two story building becomes a flat square? I am not a miniatures gamer, but I certainly wouldn't make fun of anyone who was. CM relies just as heavily on imagination, and in some ways moreso, than miniatures gaming. At least in miniatures, you can put tac signs on your tanks and know which is which at a glance - you put 311 on the side of a Tiger skin, suddenly all your Tigers are in the same platoon... [ 05-27-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure, you can paint different numbers on your tanks, but in miniatures there isn't a 1:1 ratio either. You still have to pretend 3 or 4 guys are an entire platoon. I think there is a lot more imagination going on in miniatures than in CM. I remember playing board games like that when I was younger and it's all very abstracted. Movement, firing, LOS, blast radius, everything is abstracted. How are these things even determined? Are there tables for everything? If so, how is (say, a move number) determined if you are playing on a map without any hexes or squares like they were? How do you know how far to move your men? How do you know your LOS on an enemy tank? I fail to see how something like this could be fun in the age of computers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: I fail to see how something like this could be fun in the age of computers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, just because you fail to see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. And re your comments about abstraction, well, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but there is plenty of abstraction going on in your CM game too. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 The two defy comparison. While I personally would have to say I prefer CM as a skirmish level game, it has none of the comraderie and flexibility that a good mini's game does. And let's face it - under a year of warfare on one front of combat in one war hardly compares to the ability to fight any time period at any relevant scale. If I want to fight division level WWII, I wouldn't use CM. The higher you go up the chain of command, the more important abstraction is, unless you really think it's important for your division commanders to be worrying about how each of their squads are deployed. I don't think one's really better than the other - they complement each other quite well, actually. For me, CM's not as historically interesting, but it's definitely easier to get going. It may depend on whether you're interested in minutia or relevance-- I think the strength of CM is it handles most of the little details and leaves the decisions up to the player. Miniatures systems do the same thing in different ways, that's all. Scott B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How are these things even determined? Are there tables for everything? If so, how is (say, a move number) determined if you are playing on a map without any hexes or squares like they were? How do you know how far to move your men? How do you know your LOS on an enemy tank? I fail to see how something like this could be fun in the age of computers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ah, my apologies. I thought perhaps you had an inkling as to what you were talking about, my mistake. If you want to debate something, perhaps you should do so having done a tiny bit of research first? I'll just put your comments in the "seriously misinformed" pile and we can leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Posted May 28, 2001 Share Posted May 28, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Ah, my apologies. I thought perhaps you had an inkling as to what you were talking about, my mistake. If you want to debate something, perhaps you should do so having done a tiny bit of research first? I'll just put your comments in the "seriously misinformed" pile and we can leave it at that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Be nice M. Dorosh. Afterall, its just a game. [ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: Freak ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted May 28, 2001 Share Posted May 28, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Ah, my apologies. I thought perhaps you had an inkling as to what you were talking about, my mistake. If you want to debate something, perhaps you should do so having done a tiny bit of research first? I'll just put your comments in the "seriously misinformed" pile and we can leave it at that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You're a lot better at being a smart ass than you are at explaining things, Dorosh. I don't need to be an expert at miniature war gaming to know that things like moving and shooting aren't nearly as abstracted in CM as they are in miniature war gaming. But for your information, I did play a lot of D & D in my youth and since we used those little metal figures to represent men and monsters, that would qualify as my inkling. Hey, the guy who started this post told me to compare...so I did. That's my opinion. Sorry if you took it so personally. I guess you're one of those touchy types... Back to miniatures, I'd seriously like to know how one moves and shoots in a game like that. And yes, I agree that the comraderie is better than talking through a computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clinton Posted May 28, 2001 Share Posted May 28, 2001 Well I play Battletech with miniatures when I have an opponent(which is rarly). Typically on a hex map range is just counting the hexes and los is simple laying out a string and if it cuts through a hex with los blocking characteristics then los is void. For scaled miniature boards)boards with real elivation and 3d terrain distance is judged by a scale.(Ex. One inch = 100 yards ect...) you use a ruller or something and measure it out or after time you can learn to "eyeball" it. LOS is just getting your eyes down to the boards and looking to see if you can see the enemy and then use any addition rules that may apply (partial cover, ect...) hope that helps. By the way anyone in Southern Illinois looking for a Battletech opponent e-mail me. Clinton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted May 28, 2001 Share Posted May 28, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: Back to miniatures, I'd seriously like to know how one moves and shoots in a game like that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It all varies according to scale and period of course, but Clinton's post pretty much sums it up. You measure distances, assign move rates to your pieces (inches, cm, whatever), charge extra movement for different kinds of rough terrain (2 for 1 in Woods, for instance), etc. Each type of stand or formation is given a firepower rating of some kind, and in the appropriate fire phase of a turn, you pick a target, find your fire rating on a chart or table, roll some dice, find the result, and apply it to the target. Line of sight is much improved over most board wargames (although not as precise as something like CM): you either eyeball it (naked eye or some fun tabletop periscopes can be used to get the "mini's eye view") or use a laser pointer. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalins Organ Posted May 28, 2001 Share Posted May 28, 2001 And I'd just add my $0.02 worth by pointing out that many miniatures rules DO use 1:1 scale men & machines to miniatures!! So there! Oh, and another thing - the cost of the CM disc is not the only thing I paid money for in order to be able to play the game! There's also the the $3000 NZ + GST I paid for my computer. I could obtain several different armies - WW2, Modern, Ancients, Horse & Musket, etc. with that - already painted and ready to play with. Mike, Figure gamer of no great repute!! [ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: Mike the bike ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clinton Posted May 28, 2001 Share Posted May 28, 2001 Isn't the definition of 1:1 the actual size of the real piece in question. If you were playing with a 1:1 Panzer on your board then your front room would be rather cramped eh? Correct me if I am wrong. With all due respect, Clinton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalins Organ Posted May 28, 2001 Share Posted May 28, 2001 Oh dear Clinton, living up to your namesake for intellectual depth huh??!! No, it refers, in this discussion, to the representation scale - how many "real" soldiers each toy soldier represents. The size scale you are thinking if is what modellers use to describe their figures. In CM a squad of 3 figures is anything from 7-13 men, for a scale between 2.3:1 and 4.3:1. There are wargames where each toy soldier represents a single "real" soldier, for a scale of 1:1. Of course figure size is also of interest to miniatures gamers, but it's a spearate issue - most games can handle several different sizes of figures, but only 1 representation scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ales Dvorak Posted May 28, 2001 Author Share Posted May 28, 2001 Hey, the guy who started this post told me to compare...so I did. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah. and I also said ENJOY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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