how do vehicle MG's work?

[Chad Harrison]

while im asking questions , heres another one. i know i keep bringing up ASL (sorry!), but in ASL you could target different targets with each vehicle MG (you BOW MG could get one it could see, COAXIAIL could get another, and your AA MG could target something else; or all the same). now im not complaining, i just want to know how CM models this.

in the game, it only shows one line of tracers outgoing, so if my sherman if unbuttoned, stopped and the target is lined up with all 3 MG's, does that mean that all three guns are firing? since most tanks dont have ammo for the BOW MG, how often does the driver/assistant driver throw their gun into the battle? is the BOW MG firepower near the same as that countries med. MG?

another specific question: the M3A1 has a .50cal and .30 cal AAMG, but didnt the .50 face forward and the .30 face the rear? or does the game just assume that both guns fire at ALL targets (if all crew members are OKAY)?

so im not complaining, i just want those way smart combat missioners to fill me in (and some others im sure!) so then ill make sure i face my bow MG towards those infantry if it really makes a difference.

[Conscript Bagger]

You'll see the same tracer animation no matter which MG is firing, but I think you can tell the difference by listening to the sound. I have the Mad Dog sound mods installed, and my bow MGs make a chattering sound (like the M1919 or Vickers crew-served MGs), coaxial MGs have a lower-pitched staccato "thud" sound, and the flexible .50 on Allied tanks has a very deep thump (again, the same as the infantry version).

As for firepower, I thought the bow and coax MGs in Shermans were a version of the M1919, so you should be able to approximate FP by looking at the infantry version's stats. Many (most/all?) German tanks had the MG34 in the bow, and perhaps the same weapon in coax mount.

Don't know about the halftrack question.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Offwhite:

As for firepower, I thought the bow and coax MGs in Shermans were a version of the M1919, so you should be able to approximate FP by looking at the infantry version's stats. Many (most/all?) German tanks had the MG34 in the bow, and perhaps the same weapon in coax mount.

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another related issue is that not all bow MGs are alike. The US weapon was sighted by looking through a vision periscope away from the gun. He more or less walked tracers onto targets.

The germans had a more elaborate telescopic aiming device next to the MG. The german also had a skull cap device that he put ontop of his head to steady his aim. I would wager the german system was more accurate.

I know the german MG34 had a heavy barrel option that tankers used. The MG34 should have also allowed the radio operator to change barrels strait out the back in action. The US probably couldnt. The german tankers never went for MG42's (I believe) because they changed barrels out the side.

Lewis

[David Aitken]

You can't control the MGs on a tank individually. Usually you would leave it up to the crew to fire at their discretion, but you can also issue a fire order and tell them not to use the main gun. This guarantees the coaxial MG will fire, but the bow MG is largely independent and will fire on targets within its arc.

I have always got the impression that you get separate 'tracer' animations for the bow and coaxial MGs, but now that you come to mention it, I can't be sure. As for the flexible, as Offwhite says, you tell by the sound – although I have a feeling that with the likes of German SP guns, the tracers will originate from the roof rather than the bow. Maybe I'm imagining it all.

Generally, US tanks use the Browning M1919, British tanks use the Besa (although this isn't modelled in CM so regard it as an M1919), and I think German tanks use either the MG13 or MG34. US tanks use the Browning M2 as flexible (except light tanks which use the M1919), and Germans use the MG42.

You are correct, in the case of halftracks with two MGs, the firepower is combined. This probably changes if they take a casualty, but I haven't checked (and I'm not sure if one can be sure anyway).

[Triumvir]

Speaking of MGs, is it true that you need an asbestos glove to change the barrel of an MG42, same as with an M60?

[Vanir Ausf B]

If left to their own discretion, the different MGs can and sometimes will target different targets at the same time. You'll know when this happens as there is a tracer animation going to each target. The hull MG will often shoot at a differnet target than what the main gun is firing at.

I've never noticed any difference in tracer animations from the guns, but the hull and coax MG do have different sound effects. If you're using the stock sounds the hull MG is a light snaping sound (the same sound used for the Vickers, 1919 and 1919 MGs), while the coax is a deeper, rougher sound. If the flexible MG is a .50 cal it will use the unique .50 cal sound; if it is a .30 cal I believe it uses the hull MG sound.

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[Chad Harrison]

so the general consensus is that the bow MG's firepower is added to the others and he fires it when he darn well pleases! i knew you couldnt give the BOW MG specific target orders, but when your turrets one way, your hull is another, and some ground pounders show up infront of the hull and not the turret, does the BOW MG automatically engage them? ive never seen two sets of tracers come out of a tank in a case like that. or are the bow MG tracers not shown (this is in situations when the BOW MG does NOT have its own ammo, unlike the carriers where the bow is the only MG)?

great comments by the way! i just want to make sure those assistant drivers are earning their Christmas bonus.

[nathan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Triumvir:

Speaking of MGs, is it true that you need an asbestos glove to change the barrel of an MG42, same as with an M60?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no you didnt it had a handle on it that you grab. still cant figure out why they didnt include it with the m60 but i think its on the m240b (the new replacement for the m60)

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

so the general consensus is that the bow MG's firepower is added to the others and he fires it when he darn well pleases! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not exactly.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>i knew you couldnt give the BOW MG specific target orders,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you can. If you give a tank a fire order it will use the hull MG against that target if it can, regardless if you tell it to use main gun or not. If the TacAI gives the fire order, then the hull MG may fire at a second target, if available.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>but when your turrets one way, your hull is another, and some ground pounders show up infront of the hull and not the turret, does the BOW MG automatically engage them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ive never seen two sets of tracers come out of a tank in a case like that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Play the game some more and try letting the TacAI choose your targets for you most of the time. That's what I do and your tanks will live longer lives that way.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>or are the bow MG tracers not shown (this is in situations when the BOW MG does NOT have its own ammo, unlike the carriers where the bow is the only MG)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tracers are always shown.

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

"Yes you can. If you give a tank a fire order it will use the hull MG against that target if it can, regardless if you tell it to use main gun or not. If the TacAI gives the fire order, then the hull MG may fire at a second target, if available."

so if i hear you right vanir, if my hull and turret are ate a 90 degree angle to each other, the turret MA/MG are engaging a target at that angle, and infantry appear infront of the tank. i give the "fire" command and select to not fire the MA, the turret then will not swing to engage that target, leaving the old targets (this is assuming that the old target was not a big threat, ex: a tank)? i always thought the turret WOULD swing to engage the new target, so you could order the bow MG to fire at a specific target, but by doing so you also bring in the MA/CO. MG. correct or confirm my logic someone

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

i give the "fire" command and select to not fire the MA, the turret then will not swing to engage that target, leaving the old targets (this is assuming that the old target was not a big threat, ex: a tank)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, if you manually targeted the infantry in front of your tank it would swing the turret back around so it could use the coax MG.

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

No, if you manually targeted the infantry in front of your tank it would swing the turret back around so it could use the coax MG.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

see, look at this. i learned something new today. now ill just have to go home and try this out! no CM at work, no enough guts yet . . .

vanir (or anyone whos tried this), where will the red target line be drawn then?

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

vanir (or anyone whos tried this), where will the red target line be drawn then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you manually targeted, it will be on the target. When the TacAI fires the MGs at a target it chose, there is no target line if only MGs are being fired.

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

No, if you manually targeted the infantry in front of your tank it would swing the turret back around so it could use the coax MG.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. The coax only fires when told to fire MG at a target. With the MG fire order, it'll fire both coax and (if possible) bow, expending twice the MG ammo (naturally).

But when told to target with the main gun, it won't use the coax (so long as the main gun still has ammo) because the coax can't be used while operating the main gun. The game combines the main gun with the bow whenever given a Target Main Gun command, rotating the hull between shots until the bow can also be brought to bear on the target (also trying to get the maximum armor facing the enemy).

If no fire command has been given, the coax and bow are free to engage targets within their arc. Also, when the TacAI switches targets, the MGs may independently open up (though the coax will only fire if the main gun hasn't yet found another target).

When firing two MGs simultaneously at the same target, you only seem to get one tracer stream, but you certainly do get all the different MG sounds.

Also, I have seen a tank change the bow MGs' target away from the primary target if it's being assaulted by nearby infantry; even though the gun is still engaging the primary.

The Flexible MG will behave similarly to the bow, but is much more likely to change to a secondary target than the bow. But the Flex normally doesn't carry much ammo and can't fire while buttoned (though the Hetzer and some StuGs can fire while buttoned with their Remote Flexible).

BTW, if you have a tank that has a smallish amount of HE (like a Panther), but a good amount of MG ammo, don't be afraid to use MG only on infantry. It does a very good job of supression and killing and saves the HE.

- Chris

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nathan:

no you didnt it had a handle on it that you grab. still cant figure out why they didnt include it with the m60 but i think its on the m240b (the new replacement for the m60)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure? I know there was an asbestos glove included in the crew kit for MG-34/42.

There was also an asbestos pad for laying it on to cool.

[Patgod]

RE tracers:

at least in the demo they fired from the proper places. though they were the same color. so you could tell if you were firing from the coax or the bow(at least on the sherman)

[von Schalburg]

Originally posted by nathan:

no you didnt it had a handle on it that you grab. still cant figure out why they didnt include it with the m60 but i think its on the m240b (the new replacement for the m60)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by panzerwerfer42

Are you sure? I know there was an asbestos glove included in the crew kit for MG-34/42.

There was also an asbestos pad for laying it on to cool.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Panzerwerfer42 Im pretty sure you right here.

We use the MG62, a modified version of the MG42 in the Danish army. And we use a asbestos glove when time come to change the barrel. I would realy hate to try it without one on, it get darn hot.

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: von Schalburg ]

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

...I know there was an asbestos glove included in the crew kit for MG-34/42.

There was also an asbestos pad for laying it on to cool.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The red circle locates the asbestos pad, which was used when changing barrels.

[Chad Harrison]

i went home with my new found knowledge and did some homework. heres what i found by placing one platoon of GER infantry infront of a sherman, and another platoon to the side. heres what i found:

-the games does display tracers for all MG fire, including bow MG. a little detail i had never noticed! it also has a separate sound from the COAXIAL MG, a lower sound.

-the BOW MG gunner will target independent targets of opportunity, it seemed that its rate of fire was quite a bit slower than the COAXIAL MG.

-when the turret was firing at a target perpendicular to the hull, every time i would give a "MG only" target order to a target infront of the hull at first only the BOW MG would engage it and the red line would be drawn to the perpendicular target, but every time after a few seconds the turret would swivel to engage the same target as the "MG only" target.is that a bug or do they consider did the order convince the gunner to engage with the COAXIAL MG also?

-when the hull allinged with the turret and all MG's where firing, i tried to order only a hull rotation towards the perpendicular infantry so the HULL MG could engage them. nope, never worked. every time the hull would begin to turn, but would only turn far enough to still allow the BOW MG to engage the "red line" target. is that a bug? should we be able to rotate the hull and have the BOW MG engage a target without giving it a target order?

any other imput to these quesions/or test results would be appreciated. i know someone else has wondered about this before, link to another forum result?

[Conscript Bagger]

From what I've seen, the firing order applies to the gunner - so when you click "Do not use main gun," you're telling him to use the coaxial MG on the target. As you say, the bow MG picks its own targets of opportunity, as does the flexible MG. (They may be weighted to fire on a target designated in the orders phase; I don't know.)

I'm guessing that's why you see the behavior in your first example (coax switching away from target to the side) - you'd given the order to fire on the target in front. However, I don't know why - after you gave a targeting order to the front - you started the turn with a targeting line to the side.

[Hanns]

I've got a varient on the thread. If I'm using a vehicle that has a large load out of HE but very little MG ammo to level buidlings, it always seems like the vehicle will waste MG ammo firing at the buidling. I believe it only happens with tanks with a remote flexible MG (e.g. StuH42). Is there any way to keep my trigger happy Krauts from wasting valuable MG ammo?

[nathan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

Are you sure? I know there was an asbestos glove included in the crew kit for MG-34/42.

There was also an asbestos pad for laying it on to cool.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah theres one for the 240b also but when it really starts hitting the fan nobody uses them. in the u.s. army at least they almost never use them, only to make the brass and politicians happy. i distinctly remember one of the great thing about the 42 is the fact that it had the handle that made it so you didnt need the glove. it got issued but from what i understand if you werent in a fixed position firing thousands of rounds then it was never used.

[Herr Jung]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nathan:

i distinctly remember one of the great thing about the 42 is the fact that it had the handle that made it so you didnt need the glove. it got issued but from what i understand if you werent in a fixed position firing thousands of rounds then it was never used.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen and read many things about MG42, but I've never heard of this feature. MG34 and 42 barrels are sleek without any appendages so they would slide in nicely in the barrel jackets of the guns. MG42's unique barrel changing system is based on the hinge design to the side which when pressed, will pop the barrel out of the barrel jacket so that it would be easier to remove the barrel. To handle the hot barrels, MG34/42 gunners were issued with asbestos pads (I've never seen gloves) which were often hung on the face of MG tool pouches (as shown in the photo above).

German MG34/42 spare barrels were usually carried inside special metal containers carried by the second or the third MG gunner. An LMG section would have two to three spare barrels, and a HMG section would have three to five barrels. So when changing, a spare barrel container will be opened, hot barrel removed with an asbestos pad and placed next to the fresh barrel, fresh barrel inserted in the barrel jacket, etc. I've timed this with MG34, and I could do it in about 8 seconds with every thing nicely laid out and within arms's reach, but at most 15 seconds should do it in most situations. MG42 will be much faster.

For a look of MG42 parts, see: http://www.brpguns.com/mg42.htm http://www.dragonmodelsltd.com/html/71089p2-1.html

Herr Jung

[blindseye]

All, I gotta say (looking at the photo above) is "Man, that has gotta hurt your ear!" :eek:

[Doug Beman]

How does a MG work? Well, the "MG" fires "bullets" very rapidly, and at very high "velocities." If these "bullets" hit a "human being" they will cause a lot of "bodily harm"

Couldn't resist.

DjB