The use of “Guns” in Combat Mission.

[Abbott]

Guns from the “Support” category deployed in game have some distinct strengths and weaknesses. What techniques work? What gun types are preferred in what situations?

Particular favorite types?

What guns do you use when playing Axis forces, for which tasks?

Which guns work well for the Allied forces in what situations?

Which guns have superior Ammo. load outs, for which tasks?

Which guns offer the greatest accuracy or rate of fire?

[KiwiJoe]

Well 1st up is a little known fact - the 40mm bofors gun is THE best building killer. 11 rounds a min, 34 blast - nothing beats it.

6 pounders are 1 of the best general purpose AT guns. They alomost always get T rounds - which can punch threw a Panther turret at decent range. Its also quite cheap and has a good ROF.

The 17 pounder is the most powerful allied AT gun. And with a 40 blast it can hurt infantry too.

Make sure you use HQ teams with stealth and moral bonuses to help your guns live longer. Once a gun gets pinned its fried - moral bonuses help stop this. And they will be less likely to abandon under artillery fire.

Try and place guns in postions where if 1 is firing on the front of an AFV another will have a side shot. This is a great way to kill the heavies with lower end guns like pak38's, 57mm etc

[Abbott]

Thanks Joe, well done!

[Panzer Leader]

Nothing beats the Axis 88. Both in CM and in real life people were stunned by its anti-armour capabilities. I actually think the gun is a littl over-priced in CM, and always end up getting a 75mm gun, but I always WISH I had gotten the 88.

20 mm FLAK is great for tearing into thin armour and infantry, and for the price -- who can beat it? I would rather have a 20mm than a HMG.

But for real Anti-infantry work, ya gotta love to 20mm Quad FLAK. It is a little slower than its single barreled brother, but MAN can it punch up the enemy soldiers.

I prefer to go with a few more of the less costly guns rather than the heavies. They will not last long no matter what you get, so it is easier to make your money back with the cheapies.

Oh, and Puppchens are so cheap and potent it should be against the law to use those buggers.

If I am defending, and I don't care HOW I win, then buying 6 Puppchens, 6 20mm FLAK, 2 Quad Flak, and maybe a 75mm infantry gun and (if you got the money -- which you never do) an 88, you have an impenetrable wall of fire.

At least for the first 5 turns, until they are all taken out that is...

The best way to keep your guns alive is to have each of them in a spot where they can guard one lane, and are out of view of the rest. With a gun, one shot one kill is the order of the day, they don't do suppression well. With infantry you want to have interlocking fire, but with a gun (with the possible exception of the 20mm) it is just the opposite. Narrow fire lanes, and invisibility to the rest of the map.

[Dunnee]

88 Flak. When you can afford it, best gun in the game.

[Abbott]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dunnee:

88 Flak. When you can afford it, best gun in the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why is it the best gun in the game? How do you deploy it? What are it's strengths?

[ 05-26-2001: Message edited by: Abbott ]

[Stalin's Organ]

I'm not a fan of the 88. It traverse's painfully slowly, so it simply cannot take on 2 targets if both of them can shoot at it - eg 2 shermans 90 degrees appart will kill it - sure they'll lose a Sherman, but you could have got that with a 75 for a lot fewer points!

And for the money you pay for the 88 this is a huge problem - yuo need them to cover big arcs.

Personally as Germans I prefer 50mm's (cheap, traverse quickly, occasionally get T) and Puppchen (can kill anything, and even cheaper!)

57's are great for the allies, 17 pdrs and 76's are good, but you're usually attacking or in a ME and big heavy guns that take several minutes to unlimber aren't that much use. Plus the SP versions (M-10, Achilles, Firefly, M4-76) are pretty cheap, mobile and better value.

[Redwolf]

I hesitate to even answer to this thread since I am a bit annoyed by the gun virus that infects too many CMBO battlefields, but still a few thoughts:

AA guns are much more precise than other guns. Open the editor and compare the hit chance display in the LOS tool. Good against kamikaze recon by light armour, unarmoured vehicles and infantry alike. Turn a few AA guns "inwards" to cover your own setup area and so that they are out of LOS from outside. The Bofors is extremly easy to spot even before it fires.

Careful with the Allied 6 pdr and 57mm. They are the same gun, but the British is the one that usually comes with tungsteen while the U.S. has a useful load of HE shells.

Careful with the 17 pounder, before November they do not have HE shells. They are cheaper, so that they make an even better AT treat, but still important to now. I created a big antipersonal hole in my own defense against swamp lately and since no tank came into visibility and I could not evacuate the gun and not even evacuate the crew alone, it went into captivity without firing a single shot. And I lost with 28%, 29% would have been a tactical, not major loss. So watch it. I think it applies to vehicles with 17 pdr as well.

In any case, for the month you play, study the tungsteen load of any gun you consider. If needed, open a second copy of CMBO to do so.

Pueppchen ist a strange thing. Goes throw a thick Churchill, but has a very limited range (500m) and is easy to spot, which is bad due to low hit chance. I think that anyone loosing one or even two AFV from them did something wrong.

If you are allowed to use airborne forces, look into the Pack howitzers. You can get a cheap Allied 75mm gun there.

I like the 25pdr because it comes with a useful load of real AT shells, which have a better hit chance than HC rounds and are good against armour up to early Pz IV and StuG. The better hit chance is good if you are against Hummels and Wespe that look over a ridge for just one shot and reverse again. At the same time the 25 pdr is a full-scale HE gun. I would prefer to get a combination of a real AT gun and a 105mm, but that is not always possible for price reasons. Then the 25pdr is a useful dual-purpose gun against infantry, other guns and against an armour class that many people choose for attack (StuH, Wespe, Hummel).

If you suspect you might be against lots of halftracks, i.e. 251/9 (75mm), the .50cal heavy MG can count as a AT gun as well. Goes through the front of Axis halftrack at 375m, the sides more than 1000 meters. Also better than HE against unarmoured targets like SdKfz 7/x due to HE-vs-unarmoured bug in CMBO. Vehicle mounted .50cal, especially the Jeep MG lack precision at greater distance, so the infantry team is usually more powerful.

The German infantry guns have a noticable better effect on infantry in foxholes than their blast value implies. Remember that the CMBO blast value is just an abstraction for the player's information, the actual mechanism is based on fragments flying. On the other hand, they are very easy to spot when firing, much easier than other guns that are not rockets.

I would like to discuss anti-gun tactics, but in a different threat [edited: I mean thread, of course, but I left the Freudian slip in to document my distaste]

[ 05-26-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[ParaBellum]

I really like employing guns, especially when playing germans. Since the HMG42 isn't THAT effective against light armour, I usually buy two 20mm Flak to provide flank cover against the Greyhound rush or other light recon vehicles. Also I nearly always buy 75mm Pak to use together with my tanks against enemy armour. Place the Paks on your flanks with clear LOS and you will be able to get flank shots when enemy armor engages your tanks.

Since I don't like the big german tanks too much because of their high cost, I like to use Stugs, Hetzer and Pz IV. In case my opponent fields a thickly armoured tank like the Jumbo or Churchill VII I buy an 88m Pak/Flak, just to be prepared...

They're able to penetrate anything!

With 75mm you have to get flank shots against those monsters, not easy if your opponent uses them correctly.

I always hide them, best with a HQ nearby and ONLY open fire when the chances to hit the target are good, e.g. >60%.

The 150mm axis Inf.gun also can be a decisive factor. Hide and wait. Wait 'till your opponent has spent his arty. Hope your tanks killed his armor or at least can deny him to roam freely across the battlefield.

If then you and your oppponent battle for the VLs and you can pound his infantry for some turns with 150mm shells, his infantry won't stand a chance.

[Panzer Leader]

ParaBellum me and you think alike!

[zahl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf:

Turn a few AA guns "inwards" to cover your own setup area and so that they are out of LOS from outside.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This anti-maneuver tactic renders Hellcats etc. useless. When the Allied player locates a hull down TD and tries to outflank it, suddenly some flak guns protecting the flank and rear areas open up.

[ParaBellum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

ParaBellum me and you think alike!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad to hear that.

I always wonder why people do NOT employ guns. About 50% of tank kills I achieve with Pak/Flak guns.

If I'm attacking I would prefer to meet tanks rather than guns. If used correctly, you only notice them once one of your tanks go BOOOM...

And one more info about the 88's.

If you need a strong punch against those Jumbos or Churchills, don't use the 88 Flak, use the Pak version. The 88 Flak, due to its slower muzzle velocity (773m/s) than the Pak 43 and Pak 43/41 (both 1018m/s) cannot penetrate that thick armour.

[Panther G]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

I'm not a fan of the 88. It traverse's painfully slowly, so it simply cannot take on 2 targets if both of them can shoot at it - eg 2 shermans 90 degrees appart will kill it - sure they'll lose a Sherman, but you could have got that with a 75 for a lot fewer points!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the 88 Flak's traverse isn't bad at all and if you are on the defensive and hiding, you can knock out the one Sherman and start rotating before the second one even knows you are there. I think the 88 Flak is the best overall gun in the game because it can punch through almost any allied armor short of a Pershing, Jumbo or Churchill, and it's not as expensive as a Pak 43. It is decent against infantry too. It is also very accurate. I also like the Pak 40 for Axis, and I like the 57 mm. AT gun for allies. I do have a question though. What is the difference between a Pak 43 and a Pak 43/41?

Thanks, Panther G

[ 05-26-2001: Message edited by: Panther G ]

[ParaBellum]

The Pak 43/41 has a lower silhoutte rating.

The Pak 43 has more HE rounds.

[FFE]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panther G:

What is the difference between a Pak 43 and a Pak 43/41?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Pak 43 traverses much faster, x2. A Pak 43 can pivot 90 degrees in approximately 45 seconds. In the same time the Pak 43/41 will pivot a mere 45 degrees.

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ParaBellum:

I always wonder why people do NOT employ guns. About 50% of tank kills I achieve with Pak/Flak guns.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to say that I have seen so many guns on CMBO battlefield that I begin to have a problem with it.

There are two issues with it:

1) realism

2) play fun

1) realism:

The CMBO battlefield is so small that the attacker or ME participiant can place his guns prior to the battle and expect to have quite good LOS, good enough to participiate in the attack. In reality, they would have to be towed to that position and that would the opponent allow them to spot them much more easily.

I have nothing against guns in defense, of course.

Even on attack/ME, I think that guns placed (not towed to) positions that have no LOS to the enemy setup zone or the zone around the flags are OK. Such guns are for security reasons, to deny the enemy the possibility to drive with an armoured counterattack through your private zone. OK for that. But placed guns that can shoot into a fixed enemy defense where sentries from prepared fixed positons watch all day? Please.

2) play fun

I noticed that people practially stopped buying halfway normal tank groups because of problem 1). The point of a ME is -IMHO- that both players move without hitting until they find that the situation is ripe for the clash. In the typical CMBO ME with guns, you spend too much mental enery in finding paths that are secure from guns in the enemy setup zone.

It also limited the choice of tanks people buy, see the other treat about Axis armour. That is sad, a rich choice of useable tanks is more fun for me. People buy HE throwers, turrets are "out", expensive tanks are "out", tanks are used like guns.

Just my two cents, of course.

I consider proposing to tournamenthouse CAL that attacker's guns must not only come with transport, but that they must be embarked during setup. Would you think that is a good suggestion?

[ParaBellum]

Actually I like that idea.

But then again, I see problems. The meeting engagements are IMO not very realistic. You know the VLs, so you know where your opponent has to go. Everyone places his FOs so they have LOS to those Vls. In a real ME you shouldn't know the exact point where your opponent is heading for.

In many games you have two choices. Rush the VLs and try to hold them or let the enemy take them, pound them with arty and retake them. Both doesn't seem to fit into the ME category.

Perhaps MEs would play (or feel) better if there were no VLs at all, and both parties had to cross the map to reach the other side.

I'd like the idea that guns have to be moved during combat to improve the "feel" of a ME. And how about forbidding the use of guns in your own setup zone, so you HAVE TO move?

Would IMO do a lot to make the MEs feel more like a mobile combat.

Right now, MEs IMO are way to static.

[Gen-x87]

Redwolf. I am always towing my guns around. Of course alot of them never make to the point I need them to be at

Stalins Organ: The 88 flak gun friggin fast on movement. You are probably thinking of the Pak\41. That gun looks like it has wheels and is a tradition field gun. The 88 Flak gun is on a stand it moves faster than any other gun I have see in this game.

I used an 88 flak gun in a Short 75 game last week. If you have recon the flanking manuevers are nulled. I tracked my opponents Sherman on the right side of the map while hiding the gun. Just making rotates and hides. Then I got the gun knocked off of the sherman and knew a Sherman 105 was completly to the opposite side of the gun. It had to turn a good 120 degrees. I rotated it and one turn later it was in place and so was his tank. I opened up at 500 meters and killed it on the first shot. Not bad for an 85 point gun. He never even saw the thing until it struck

Anywho I think the best gun in this game is either the Pak41\43 or the 88 Flak. Though I lean more towards the 88 Flak just because it is only 85 points and will kill almost anything on the battlefield. Unless your opponent bought a Super Pershing\Pershing or Jumbo or Chruchill. And if that happens I can always have my Panthers take care of that.

The 88 flak is actually not that bad against infantry either.

How to use these things? To tell you th truth I am still getting the hang of it. For my AT weapons I still try to get them the best area to cover. For my other guns I try to find a good high point with tree coverage and hope for the best.

Most guns will not last long after found so you them when you know they will be worth it.

Gen

[Phillies Phan]

My favorite Axis gun is the 150MM Inf gun. You don't have to aim precisely at a target because of the huge blast. I usually place it near cover away from the center of the map or I place it where anyone coming towards a flag and is running for cover. I like to lead infantry with the gun i.e. fire where I think they are going the next turn. I also put a heavy machine gun very close to it in case there is a small tank/half track that wants to take it out or a squad of infantry that sneaks up on it. I know that the firing is slow but its been effective against infantry thus far. I've yet to use it against a human because the average human tactic against guns is so much different than the AI's. In taking out a gun, I've found that spotting with infantry and then using indirect mortars or artillery works well.

I've yet to find an allied equivalent to this weapon and would appreciate any tips on allied guns.

I'm also partial to any and all Flak guns. The high rate of fire doesn't give armor much chance to fire back without at least being immobilized. I beleive that any time a gun takes out a tank, it has paid for itself. If it takes out more than one piece of armor, then so much the better. One effective way I've used these guns is to hide them when they are not actively firing upon a unit or area.

[Abbott]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phillies Phan:

My favorite Axis gun is the 150MM Inf gun. You don't have to aim precisely at a target because of the huge blast. I usually place it near cover away from the center of the map or I place it where anyone coming towards a flag and is running for cover. I like to lead infantry with the gun i.e. fire where I think they are going the next turn. I also put a heavy machine gun very close to it in case there is a small tank/half track that wants to take it out or a squad of infantry that sneaks up on it. I know that the firing is slow but its been effective against infantry thus far. I've yet to use it against a human because the average human tactic against guns is so much different than the AI's. In taking out a gun, I've found that spotting with infantry and then using indirect mortars or artillery works well.

I've yet to find an allied equivalent to this weapon and would appreciate any tips on allied guns.

I'm also partial to any and all Flak guns. The high rate of fire doesn't give armor much chance to fire back without at least being immobilized. I beleive that any time a gun takes out a tank, it has paid for itself. If it takes out more than one piece of armor, then so much the better. One effective way I've used these guns is to hide them when they are not actively firing upon a unit or area.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Phan, interesting points.

[Jeff Hays]

One of my favorite gun is the 75mm Inf gun. I use this little devil in city fighting, woods, and open terrain. It is quite effective at taking on infantry at long ranges and it is movable by it s crew. It even has a good chance of at least damaging a tank and not to mention a great halftrack killer. They almost always end up dead but nothing better to have enemy infantry occupy a building only to be faced with a 75 inf gun sitting a few rows over pounding them with infantry support of course.

[Dunnee]

Why do I like the 88? Well some people say it's slow, others say it doesn't traverse fast enough. If you use them in pairs, they are quite devastating. Perfect example is the Op: Road to Mortain. Used in conjuction, the two 88's you get stop the allied armored column cold. They are powerful tank killing guns, great for waxing infantry, and their "one shot, one kill" capability makes up for slow target acquisition. Like I said, if you can get a pair of 88's, you won't have to worry about armor coming from THAT flank, infantry too better beware.

[gclement]

People seem to mention it only as a light armour anti-tank gun, but an effective gun (I've found) for taking out even behemoths is the 20mm German AA gun. It doesn't have the ability to punch through thick armour but a typical "scenario" goes like this: 20mm gun surprises the tank and gets off multiple shots, buttoning it up. Gun continues to get off many shots per turn, eventually getting a track hit which immobilizes the tank. The gun then plugs away until it achieves a gun damaging hit. Shortly thereafter, the tank crew bails and the tank is done for (without ever having it's armour penetrated). The whole process takes maybe 3 or so turns and the interesting things are that the gun often survives (best to have more than one, too, even though it's only ever been one gun versus one tank in my encounters), it works often (maybe I'm just lucky), and I've only ever seen the process work in the order stated above. I haven't looked at it too scientifically but it seems like the gun specifically targets the tracks first (multiple impacts on the ground around the tank) and then shifts to the tank gun once an immobilization is achieved. It's like it has a whiff of intelligence that knows how to systematically disable any tank. At first I thought this was an ability of the quad 20mm but then I took out a 152mm armoured Churchill in the first battle in which I tried it with the single 20mm. I don't really like to reveal my tricks (nor *have/use* tricks) but I also wonder if such events were common/possible.

Greg

[Stalin's Organ]

Yeah - I haven't used the Flak 43, but IMO the L56 Flak (the earlier one) is a waste of space - it lacks penetration to guarantee a knockout of hte allied heavies, and it's so big that it often gets spotted without firing!!

As for Drive to Mortain - well that's an operation set up for AT guns - hte allies have to advance straight up a narrow map IIRC, so my comments abouot PAK traverse obviously don't apply.

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panther G:

What is the difference between a Pak 43 and a Pak 43/41?

Thanks, Panther G

[ 05-26-2001: Message edited by: Panther G ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The actual difference is the Pak 43 is built on a pivot mounted on a base, similar to the Flak guns, while the Pak 43/41 was an 88 L/71 barrel mounted on an artillery carriage.

It was reffered to as the "Scheunentur", if I spelled it right, which means barn door. They actually look rather different, but CM uses the same graphics for both. It also should have a traverse similar to the 150mm IG.

[ 05-26-2001: Message edited by: panzerwerfer42 ]