Nashorn

[Splash]

Could somebody explain what gives with this TK. I got one in a quick battle and it was very handy in dispelling tanks however once finished with that I wanted to unload its h shells on a ground area. Anytime I unzipped it would get knocked out by some infantry or something. As I could never see what had los (no zooks went off -- there were not PIATS in this scenario). It was well back of the action (250 to 325 metres). Seems very fragile. I tried it various ways to see what gives - zipped it was ok but refused to fire shells it would instead put smoke into the area. By the end if I coulda shot it myself I woulda.

[Captain Wacky]

Are you sure that it was actually knocked out? Maybe you crew just chickened out and abandoned. Also, if you're sure no zooks got it then maybe it was a victim of the might Ma Duece. I'm not looking at the penetration tables right now, but I'm guessing the .50cal can take out a thin-skinned td.

[Berlichtingen]

Mortars have no problen with Nashorns, so maybe that's what happened to it

[MikeyD]

Sounds like you had a spot of bad luck. Nashorns can be lethal (if annoyingly vulnerable) on large flat boards but the typical mid-size CM 'woodsy/housey' board plays more to the Nashorn's weaknesses than to its strengths. I wonder how it'll do out on the wide-flat Russian steppes.

[edgars]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Anytime I unzipped it would get knocked out by some infantry or something<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really don't understand what you mean with this. Unzipped what? How do you do unzipping in CM ?

[Splash]

Buttoning/zipping Just a play of words I like to do. Altho' I never have developed as far as rhyming slang.

[Commissar]

Well, the Nashorn is open topped and thin skinned and lacks even an MG. This means that it's vulnerable to artillery, can be easily penetrated by heavier caliber MGs and at the mercy of infantry especially if they are carryin AT weapons. Even grenades can take this one out. You are better off keeping these things far back to deal with heavy tank/vehicle threats and well away from leg units. What I normally do is keep these thingg behind a hill, totally unexposed and only pop them into hull down when a thick skinned threat appears that none of my other assets can handle. They tend to last longer this way from my experience.

[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[Splash]

Cap'n Wacky you are right they did abandoned and it was to a .50 MG -- I'm shocked at their temerity.

MikeyD it was med. map small hills heavily wooded so there you go -- it was very hard to deploy. I've been practising defense in heavy woods.

Berlichtingen - it wasn't a mortar but one did pop my 1/2 track canon - broke the gun.

It was QB but I notice that when you select heavily wooded the game goes infantry heavy (logically) but nontheless gave me the Nashorn also.

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Splash:

[QB]Cap'n Wacky you are right they did abandoned and it was to a .50 MG -- I'm shocked at their temerity.[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

.50's can penetrate many thin skinned vehicles with ease.

[edgars]

I still fail to understand what it all has to do with buttoning / unbuttoning (or unzipping as our friend prefered to say).

.50 can knock Nash out no matter buttoned or not.

[Shatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ciks:

.50 can knock Nash out no matter buttoned or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just finished a TCP/IP, were my friend had a Nashorn and a MarderIII and both were taken out by my 50cal. at 350m to 400m. He is always sending his light skins on my flanks so I positioned a 50cal and 57mm ATG on each of my flanks. Needless to say another major victory for me. His tactics are so predictable.

Hey Bill when you see this, maybe it will give you some insentive to rethink your tactics.

[Captain Wacky]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Splash:

Cap'n Wacky you are right<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, its so good to here those words .

Wacky, Wacky, Wacky!!!

[Cubbies Phan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captain Wacky:

I'm not looking at the penetration tables right now, but I'm guessing the .50cal can take out a thin-skinned td.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I made a PzIVJ abandon after shooting it in the ass with the .50 on a Easy Eight. I couldn't believe it. I had to watch it again. I was like "What the devil took it out?" I watched it again and a burst of MG fire from the Sherman took it out.

[Slapdragon]

The .50 is the bomb. German vehicles need to stay at least a thousand meters away from it to be safe. This is the reason the .50 is still on the Abrams, killing lightly armored thinks with lots of teeth and not much shell.

[Jeff Duquette]

Typical employment of the Nashorn would have been long-range ambushes…shoot a couple of rounds than displace to a secondary position before being acquired. Its high velocity 88L71 gave the advantage of an accurate, fairly flat trajectory weapon, out to ranges of 1500m. In addition its open top gave the crew advantages over conventional tanks when it comes to observing ones own fall of shot. Makes it easier for a crew to adjust 2nd or 3rd rounds onto its targets. One last advantage is that Nashorn crews were typically equipped with EM or Sfz type range finders. The EM coincidence range finder was pretty much the same rangefinder employed by Flak88 crews used for range finding and part of the reason for the Flak88's reputation for uncanny accuracy at longer ranges. A Nashorn sitting in an ambush position watching an obvious enemy approach route could make up a range card with vary accurate range information provided by the EM. First round hit probability against unsuspecting tanks walking into a Nashorn's ambush zone should be relatively high. Unfortunately the existing accuracy model in CM is not conducive to the types of tactics which Nashorns were best suited.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From Achtung Panzer Web Page: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/profiles.htm

The most notable Nashorn ace was platoon commander of 1st company of sPzJagAbt 519, Junior Lieutenant Albert Ernst. He later commanded the 1st company of sPzJagAbt 512 (equipped with Jagdtigers). On December 23rd of 1943, he destroyed some 14 Soviet tanks in a single day using only 21 round of ammunition. The engagement took place near Vitebsk and Albert Ernst received a nickname "Tiger of Vitebsk". In December of 1943, Ernst destroyed total of 19 enemy tanks and on January 22nd of 1944, he was awarded the Knight's Cross. In early March of 1945, Lieutenant Beckmann from sPzJagAbt 88 destroyed Soviet IS-2 at the range of 4600 meters near Marzdorf.

Some Nashorn crews reported that they were able to knock out Soviet T-34 tanks at distance as great as 4000 meters. Nashorn crews also reported numerous kills of KV and IS-2 tanks as well as SU-152, ISU-122 and ISU-152 assault guns.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Michael Emrys]

Best way to think of a Nashorn (and other lightly armored TDs) is as an AT gun mounted on a self-propelled platform. It was done to give it greater mobility to facilitate bugging out when it came under fire. I suspect the greatest mistake that CM players make with them is leaving them in place once they've been spotted. Once they're seen, it's usually only a matter of time (and not much of that either) until they're dead.

Michael

[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

it was done to give it greater mobility to facilitate bugging out when it came under fire.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apart from the good advise you give, I think that is the wrong explanation for the mobility the mary gave the SP guns.

The main point about giving AT guns self-propellation is that tank hunter units held in reserve behind a frontline can reach the point of an armoured break-in sooner and after arrival they don't have a deployment phase where they are very vulnerable.

[JasonC]

I agree with all the last three comments, LOL. I just add that the first two units to use them in action were the 560 and 655 heavy PzJgr battalions, each with 45 vehicles, on the southern part of the Kursk battle. Both units were under command of 42 Corps. The northern side had the heavily armored Elephants instead, in the 653 and 654 heavy PzJgr battalions, with 41 Panzer Corps.

[Redwolf]

Jason, any info about losses or performance? OK, the Elefanten were not great either, but still interesting...

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:

TOne last advantage is that Nashorn crews were typically equipped with EM or Sfz type range finders. The EM coincidence range finder was pretty much the same rangefinder employed by Flak88 crews used for range finding and part of the reason for the Flak88's reputation for uncanny accuracy at longer ranges.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is what Bernhard Averbek ("Panzerjaeger: Tank Hunter") said about the Nashorn, that the Flak range finder made them so precise. The guy was manning a Pak40 at the time, so bad a base for comparision.

So, if that thing is so great, why didn't they put it onto other tanks as well. Maybe it requires the open top? How big is it, how much space do you need to use it.

Is it too expensive?

Questions over questions...

[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[gunnergoz]

I suspect that the German man-portable rangefinders (the hand-helds were about 1 meter long, like a metal shipping tube held horizontal to the eyes) would be too delicate to hard-mount to a vehicle. Postwar ones were enormous and required big armored housings on either side of the turret (remember the M-48 and M-60 tanks). The wider the base, the greater the accuracy, but they are still fairly delicate items and may have limitations under limited light conditions. I'd love to have one but they are not cheap even on Ebay when one turns up.

Here's a photo of one from a current ebay auction:

[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: gunnergoz ]

[Redwolf]

Thanks, exactly what I wanted to know.

I wonder, though, why you can't make as good a range estimation by the size of the target object (using optics that have scales). After all, usually people would knew to the centimeter how long or wide that fatass enemy tank was.

[ 10-06-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Gunnergoz SaidI suspect that the German man-portable rangefinders (the hand-helds were about 1 meter long, like a metal shipping tube held horizontal to the eyes) would be too delicate to hard-mount to a vehicle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EM’s came in a range of sizes, but I agree that those employed in tank destroyers or by Panzer crews would have been the 1m base or less in size. Em.R.14 or Em.R.34 had base lengths of 70cm. Most Flak88 crews appear to be employing Em.R.1 or Em.R.36 both with 1meter base lengths. There were also 1.5meter, and 4meter base range finders built by the Germans.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'd love to have one but they are not cheap even on Ebay when one turns up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty hard-core gunnergoz

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Redwolf Said: That is what Bernhard Averbek ("Panzerjaeger: Tank Hunter") said about the Nashorn, that the Flak range finder made them so precise. The guy was manning a Pak40 at the time, so bad a base for comparision.

So, if that thing is so great, why didn't they put it onto other tanks as well. Maybe it requires the open top? How big is it, how much space do you need to use it.

Is it too expensive?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Delicate…probably. Binoculars can be delicate too. The hand portable EM’s were stored in a padded leather carrying case when not in use. Long road march ahead…pop the Em in its carrying case. You would hardly toss the thing onto the turret floor along with all the empty milk-shake cups and Big-Mac wrappers. No doubt the EM 14’s carrying case would fit quite snugly in the ready racks or even the bustle rack or toolbox of a tank. Stuff a field jacket around the case..presto…snug as a bug in a rug.

Expensive…I have no idea? Perhaps someone else has information on cost. Sounds like if you buy one on ebay that aren’t cheap.

The Em14 appears to have been employed by even German tankers, the frequency of which I don’t know at the moment (continuing research). Tiger I’s recovered by the British in Tunisia had 70cm EM range finders on board. Hand portable jobs. What’s up with that? Jentz also has several passages somewheres’ in “Tiger Combat Tactics” discussing Tiger Crews in Sicily & Italy training on hand portable rangefinders. Stereoscopic jobs.

EM’s were also standard equipment for the plethora (read here unable to standardize equipment) of Flakpanzer types the Germans were cranking out.

As far as the practicality of using an Em type instrument in the attack; No doubt this would have been pretty limited (IMHO). The TC of a tank has enough trouble maintaining his balance in a tank moving at any speed cross-country. He certainly isn’t going to try juggling a 2 ft long bazooka like optical instrument while trying to hang on to the sides of his cupola, and at the same time shouting at his driver to halt but dont drive into that ditch to the right as well bellowing fire commands to his loader and gunner, at the same time listening to his platoon sergeant bitching at him over the wireless. More likely while in the attack binoculars would be used, and stadiametric range estimation would have been the rule of thumb. Unless the attack was creeping along at a very slow cautious pace. Creep…stop…observe…creep…stop…observe.

The practicality of these instruments in a defensive position would be a different matter. A crew that has enough time to prepare a range card would find such an instrument extremely valuable. Range estimation beyond about 1500m for even high velocity, flat trajectory weapons becomes crucial to hit probability. But if you already have the range in hand there isn’t much need for bracketing. Range in hand means high first round hit probability. That’s why a Nashorn that has had a bit of time to prepare an ambush can KO fourteen T34’s with 21 rounds or can pick off a JSII at 4000m. Knowing ranges before the battle is joined is one of the more subtle force multipliers applicable to folks standing on the defensive.

Which brings up the question of why tanks and guns in CM cant set ambushes beyond 300m from their position. Clearly a Nashorn has little value if it can’t ambush beyond 300m. Its high silhouette, open top, and thin armor around the gun mount make it both awkward and easy prey in close in fighting. CM already does a good job of modeling the limited value of Nashorns for close in fights. How about giving the beast a break in long range ambushes…that’s how it was supposed to have been employed, and that is the type of tactical situation in which it proved most successful.

[ 10-06-2001: Message edited by: Jeff Duquette ]

[Jeff Duquette]

Just some additional thoughts on German range finders....

The Sf14z appears to have been more commonly employed by Tiger and Panther crews. This is that donkey eared looking instrument you often see WWI German Field Marshals gazing intently into. Both vehicles had a peg built into the TC’s cupola for the mounting the Sf14z.

Sf14z was also a standard piece of equipment on Stug III’s, Stug IV’s, Jagdpanzer IV’s and the Jagdtiger. It may have been standard on JagdPanthers as well, but I don’t know that for sure…I’ll look into it if it is of interest. Nashorns seemed to have used this thing too. Look at that picture on the Achtung Panzer web page in the Nashorn Section. The right upper corner of the picture with the caption “Nashorn – Interior with 88mm gun” you can see the back of one of the donkey ears of an Sf14z.

Just about all modern MBT’s have either coincidence, stereo, or laser range finders as standard equipment. The Germans seemed to have pioneered the use of optical range finders as standard equipment on AFV’s during WWII, albeit – with the exception of Stug’s and Jagd’s-- these instruments were hand held and not intrinsic\built into the vehicles fire control system ala an M48, M60 Leopard, Conqueror, etc.

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:

Just some additional thoughts on German range finders....

The Sf14z [snip]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did someone say Sf14z?

Sfz14

On this website are the pictures I posted in the 88L56 accuracy thread, but there have been so many new folk...