Careers in Combat Mission

[themaltese]

Hi there! I am totally awestruck at CMBO! I was once a great fan of Panzer Commander, West Front, and East Front II. Now, CMBO combines Panzer Commander and West Front to a degree that's got me 100% addicted. When CM2 comes out, East Front II will be a thing of the past too! I do have one issue with CM, though, that I miss from the other games -- careers and promotions. It was a satisfying experience in both PC and WF to be "rewarded" with a medal or promotion after smashing my opponents! Is there a demand for incorporating careers and promotions into this already beyond excellent game? I, for one, would really like to see this addition.

themaltese

[Dunnee]

I've talked about that, more rewarding campaigns that come with the game. . .just like you said, a career system. A lot of others feel that way too, so hopefully it will get noticed a find a way into CM2, but I doubt it.

[Phoenix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by themaltese:

I do have one issue with CM, though, that I miss from the other games -- careers and promotions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get used to it. It's not going to be in CM2 either. BTS has been clear about this over the last 2 years.

I'd say "do a search" with the key word "campaign" if you want more detailed info and their reasons why.

[David Aitken]

And when we win a battle, can we have extra credits to buy our forces for the next battle? Or can we get access to more powerful vehicles? Like you start off with only bolt-action rifles and scout cars, and after a couple of wins you are allowed submachineguns and light tanks, and then you move up to machineguns and heavy tanks? And as you progress, your scientists come up with ways to make your soldiers stronger and braver and more alert?

[David Aitken]

Wait, I've had a better idea. When you win, ask a friend/partner to open a word processor and type in big letters on your screen, "Congratulations, for your valour in combat you have been promoted to the rank of Major-General!". Then you can even print it out and put it on your wall. You might also ask them to award you with treats for your successes. You could have an attainment chart as such:

Minor Victory: Chocolate bar

Tactical Victory: Beer

Major Victory: Beer & chocolate bar

Total Victory: Double rations!

For each loss you should deprived of equal numbers of the above, so you have to break even before you get any more treats.

There will, of course, be a grog version:

Minor Victory: No reward, clean rifle and eat rations

Tactical Victory: Unit commendation

Major Victory: Personal citation

Total Victory: Two days' leave!

Minor Loss: Ask friend/partner to inflict concussion

Tactical Loss: Gunshot to arm or leg

Major Loss: Bayonet wound to lung or intestines

Total Loss: Gunshot and bayonet wounds and two years' internment

By following the above rules, we can complete the immersiveness of the game and really start to care about our actions, as all armchair generals should! Your pixellated soldiers are depending on you!

[patboivin]

Good grief people, this isn't an RPG, you're in the wrong plane of existence here.

This is a tactical simulation.

Given the life expentancy of people on the front lines during WW-II (my own gaming record as a commander bears this out), you can expect your "career" to last an average of two weeks or so, I believe.

Grognards would have better figures I'm sure.

In any case, if you don't do well as a commander, wouldn't it be fair for the game engine to force you to ride an armoured car for a while? Or better yet, wouldn't your troops' morale suddenly go from regular to green, or veteran to regular? Perhaps the crack and elite troops would just absolutely refuse to follow your orders, and the AI would take them over completely...

Anyway, when I saw this thread title I thought "Oh, they're talking about my career in CM, as in... it's taking over my life!"

[ParaBellum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

Wait, I've had a better idea...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not so diplomatic maybe, but I love this guy!

[Mord]

The Guy only asked a question fellas. The sarcasm rate around here lately is over the top. Can't we try and be a little nicer to the less enlightened who haven't spent every waking moment pouring over the topics on this BB?

Mord.

[David Aitken]

Yeah, geez, really. Why can't everyone take each other seriously, like me?

[rleete]

As I recall, the standard reply to this type of question used to be DO-A-SEARCH! Now it simply becomes a sarcastic post. But anyone who jumps right in and asks lame-o, beaten to death stuff deserves it. Come on, do a little reasearch first. It isn't like this is the latest twitch offering, it and the entire forum have been around a while. So, DO-A-SEARCH!

[Cubbies Phan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

Yeah, geez, really. Why can't everyone take each other seriously, like me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With a name like Aitken, are you aitken (aching) to drob over dead sometime soon?

[Mord]

It's the guys first post. How about we say Welcome aboard Maltese, glad you enjoy the game, glad to have you here on the BB!

Now if you have any questions DO A SEARCH!

Just kidding. Have fun and don't forget about all the great mods to download.

Mord

[David Aitken]

Cubbies Phan wrote:

> are you aitken (aching) to drob over dead sometime soon?

That might have been amusing if you hadn't explained it and I hadn't heard better variants many times before, but I don't think so.

[Aloid]

Where's the Borg when you need 'em...

Anyway, welcome to your new life as a CM junkie.

:eek:

I think a more realistic RPG method of feedback would be that when you lost your command unit, CM would automatically un-install itself and all mods.

If you win a battle, you get the pleasure of moving on to the next one.

Aloid

[Lars]

Damn, I though I was going to get to send my resume to Battlefront.

[themaltese]

Greetings to all my fellow armchair generals. I posted a simple comment and question and, apparently, I got a majority response ranging from absolute sarcasm to mindless, sign-of-the-times, buzzword rhetoric "do a search", to the more mature understanding that, indeed, all I did was make a comment and ask a question. So, let me address the sarcastic remarks first. I am extremely interested in military history with emphasis on WWII. I have visited Normandy, I have visited Bastogne, I have visited Tobruk, and I have visited a lot of places were lives were given with the utmost display of courage on both sides. I have spoken with 2 survivors of the BISMARCK. I have visited with 3 Knight's Cross winners, spoken with 1 Medal of Honor recepient, spoken with survivors of Omaha Beach,and I have spoken with Rommel's driver in Africa. NOT ONE PERSON that I know that went through the HELL that was known as WWII would take kindly to comparing medals to chocolate bars! CMBO is a game, but a game that prides itself on realism. All I did was mention that I liked the idea of having "careers and medals" in West Front and Panzer Commander, and asked a question as to whether or not there was a demand for this addition. Which brings me to "do a search". I can read, and I can understand that the designers of CMBO did not feel like putting in these features because of their own reasons. However, I ASKED the QUESTION as to whether or not there is a DEMAND for this feature? Going back to the basics of business, SUPPLY is controllable (in this case, from the developers of CMBO), DEMAND is not. My question was on the DEMAND side, and perfectly legitimate. If the guys at TalonSoft, SSI, and Microprose put this feature that I'm asking about in their product, did they do it because THEY felt like it was a cool feature, or did they do it because there was a demand for it? I like the features of careers and medals in games for TWO very justified reasons: 1) to add incentive for one to reach and continue to reach objectives, and 2) to add further realism to the game by making a player think twice about sending his own figure or men to their deaths. This day and age of saving where you left off at a good point, or using multiple lives to continue after you got your head blown off in a previous game, creates an illusion that only detracts from realism. On a last note, to prove that I'm right, I challenge you that are owners of games with "careers" in them (i.e. European Air War, Panzer Commander, West Front ...)to play the game with the knowledge that, if you die, you're dead and your career is over, period. I am more than positive that you'll notice, in realizing your own mortality, you'll play a little differently than if you were playing for the hell of it, and knowing that "Awh, no problem, I'll just fly that again with my re-incarnated butt." It's safe to be in our chairs, right, to play these games and fire-off wise-ass remarks? But if you take one moment in any game where you feel a fear of losing your own in-game "life" (which may give you a ever so slight picture of the hell soldiers, sailors, and pilots went through in wars) and you perform some act of courage like landing on Omaha or bringing your single tank's gun to bear on an advancing column of enemy tanks to protect a retreating column of your own soldiers, and then "living" through this incredible act, quite possibly, you may develop a better respect for bravery and self-sacrifice, a lesser respect for cowards, and a better understanding of the horrible reality of war.

[Molotov]

Ya maltese

[Juardis]

Don't mind Aitken, he gets a little cranky 'bout this time every month To answer your question, the demand is drowned out by the, how shall I say this nicely?...by the historical crowd. So the demand has been low. BTS also seems adamant about not including promotions and quality increases. Myself? I think it should be available for any operation lasting more than 3 days. The reason is that 50% of the US green troops became casualties in the first 3 days. If they made it that far, then they were considered seasoned. I mean, it only takes a couple arty barrages to realize you either hide in your hole or hug a tree, depending on where you are.

So, in operations of 3 or more days I think it a good idea. In single battles, it's pointless. The problem of course is that operations don't last for the entire war like some of the games you mentioned. They were still only isolated battles over longer periods of time. So yes, it adds incentive and interest in keeping your dudes alive, but it also seems like a low priority given that other portions of operations need a much higher priority (like dynamic front lines, existence of pockets, etc).

[themaltese]

Thanks Juardis (Jeff)! Your response makes sense and is the type of response I was looking for. I agree with you about this not being feasible for scenarios, but it's definitely feasible for campaigns. At least if we had a figure on the field representing us, and the game continuing depending on whether or not this figure is still alive at the end of each scenario in a campaign, I would make do with that. That would separate the chicken-s**t commanders who hide waaaaayyy behind their troops from commanders like Rommel and Patton who led their men from the front. I still think that CMBO is the best ground warfare ever to have come about! It's amazing how far we've come from those silly 2-D games, huh?

[Panzer Leader]

Maltese, I totally agree with you. There are many accounts (to many in fact) of soldier, companies, and even divisions (like the Gross Deutchland for instance) who fought in MANY battles over the course of the war.

Campaigns are great. Maybe games like Panzer General took it a little far, but I will forever love the dynamic campaign game of East Front, even if I was down to one tank per platoon by battle 3!

I would also love to see a campaign game in CM:BB, but I have a feeling that BTS has firmly decided that its a no-go. Oh well.

Welcome aboard, why don't you find one of these gents to set up in a PBEM game?

[BloodyBucket]

Well put Maltese. There are good arguements to be had for a "survival" feature, from both historical and game-play grounds.

It would be kind of pointless in a single battle, but I freely admit that it would be fun if the game gave out some recognition to units that did well.

Granted, you can look at the "kills" after a battle, but I don't think it would eliminate the realism of the game if the most effective or "hardest fighting" units were singled out with an award, or merely identified. I know, CM is not a clickfest or a FPS. It would just be for the hell of it.

A real commander is constrained by the moral and practical disadvantages of lavishly spending the lives of his men to control a "victory location" on the "last turn" (the Hurtgen Forest might be an exception). Most veterans say that one of the tragedies of war is the way it consumes "the best of us", and if there was a way to make the player feel that way about his units, so much the better.

It is ironic to me that an effort to make the game more immersive is dismissed on grounds that it would somehow be silly. We mod, we demand correct armor stats, we debate tactics and weapons constantly, but if someone points out that battle is an emotional as well as a physical and mental exersize, he gets labeled as silly.

It is ridiculous to be playing with little electronic toy soldiers to begin with. I do it because it's fun . CM, great as it is, will never be more than a pale shadow of the real event. If the shadow can be made to include a small insight into the emotions and considerations of the people it is cast by, and not just show the actions and tools used, that might not be bad.

I gotta go, my toy soldiers need me

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by themaltese:

Greetings to all my fellow armchair generals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greetings back.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I posted a simple comment and question and, apparently, I got a majority response ranging from absolute sarcasm to mindless, sign-of-the-times, buzzword rhetoric "do a search", to the more mature understanding that, indeed, all I did was make a comment and ask a question. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get used to it. We're a diverse bunch!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So, let me address the sarcastic remarks first. I am extremely interested in military history with emphasis on WWII. I have visited Normandy, I have visited Bastogne, I have visited Tobruk, and I have visited a lot of places were lives were given with the utmost display of courage on both sides. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Realizing full well this gives you no special clairvoyance the rest of us don't possess - and I'll bet most of those lives were taken not given, and that most of them were scared out of their minds and would never have described themselves as courageous....but I digress!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I have spoken with 2 survivors of the BISMARCK. I have visited with 3 Knight's Cross winners, spoken with 1 Medal of Honor recepient, spoken with survivors of Omaha Beach,and I have spoken with Rommel's driver in Africa. NOT ONE PERSON that I know that went through the HELL that was known as WWII would take kindly to comparing medals to chocolate bars! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have talked to US, Canadian and German vets, and read the comments of many more, some of whom would disagree. German soldiers called their decorations Blech - "tin", and the Canadians sneered at their CVSM ribbons, calling them the "Spam medal" (for eating too much tinned meat, they joked) or the EBGO (Every Bastard's Got One - to get it, you had to belong to the Army for 18 months - that's it).

But that is not the point. There are some who feel that letting a player "win" decorations for playing a "game" cheapens the real deal. I don't - I have designed rules for a campaign game for CM in which players can qualify for various decorations (it is on my site), but do understand how others feel. I also re-enact, and there are many violently opposed to re-enactors wearing historically accurate decorations. The debate isn't confined to CM by any means.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> CMBO is a game, but a game that prides itself on realism. All I did was mention that I liked the idea of having "careers and medals" in West Front and Panzer Commander, and asked a question as to whether or not there was a demand for this addition. Which brings me to "do a search". I can read, and I can understand that the designers of CMBO did not feel like putting in these features because of their own reasons. However, I ASKED the QUESTION as to whether or not there is a DEMAND for this feature? Going back to the basics of business, SUPPLY is controllable (in this case, from the developers of CMBO), DEMAND is not. My question was on the DEMAND side, and perfectly legitimate. If the guys at TalonSoft, SSI, and Microprose put this feature that I'm asking about in their product, did they do it because THEY felt like it was a cool feature, or did they do it because there was a demand for it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not so sure it is a case of either/or. There are other possibilities.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I like the features of careers and medals in games for TWO very justified reasons: 1) to add incentive for one to reach and continue to reach objectives, and 2) to add further realism to the game by making a player think twice about sending his own figure or men to their deaths. This day and age of saving where you left off at a good point, or using multiple lives to continue after you got your head blown off in a previous game, creates an illusion that only detracts from realism. On a last note, to prove that I'm right, I challenge you that are owners of games with "careers" in them (i.e. European Air War, Panzer Commander, West Front ...)to play the game with the knowledge that, if you die, you're dead and your career is over, period. I am more than positive that you'll notice, in realizing your own mortality, you'll play a little differently than if you were playing for the hell of it, and knowing that "Awh, no problem, I'll just fly that again with my re-incarnated butt." It's safe to be in our chairs, right, to play these games and fire-off wise-ass remarks? But if you take one moment in any game where you feel a fear of losing your own in-game "life" (which may give you a ever so slight picture of the hell soldiers, sailors, and pilots went through in wars) and you perform some act of courage like landing on Omaha or bringing your single tank's gun to bear on an advancing column of enemy tanks to protect a retreating column of your own soldiers, and then "living" through this incredible act, quite possibly, you may develop a better respect for bravery and self-sacrifice, a lesser respect for cowards, and a better understanding of the horrible reality of war<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not likely. I agree with your sentiments - I am a big fan of campaign games, naming soldiers, etc., to add to the immersion factor. But don't fool yourself for a second that playing a computer game will teach you anything about being a soldier, or about history. Computer games (and CM among them) just ain't that good. A simple look at the "realism" threads on this board (numbering by now in the thousands, perhaps) will show you how far CM is from being a "simulation" - and how much it is still just "a game."

A great game, but just a game.

[ 04-25-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Dunnee]

I got Maltese's back, but not about medals, i'm concerned with storyline. And as for Aitken talkin bout "armchair generals", isn't he one too?

[Abteilung]

Careers would certainly add a measure of realism to the game if implemented correctly. Engagements with the enemy was the number one winner of medals. Certainly the crew of a stuart which knocks a couple tigers out would recieve some manner of decoration or recognition. Same with a Panther crew which stops the onslaught of an armored company. I'm just throwing out examples which are within the scope of CM and would merely be the designer's discretion wheter to include them or not. Read stories of how certain individuals came to win theri awards. There are already many scenarios which depict these famous moments (i.e. Villers-Bocage). The only thing that is missing is an "instant assessment" of the battle and a distribution of merit after the battle. In my opinion, that would be a tad unrealistic. Medals were awarded sometimes months after the action. Only in the most desperate of situations would soldiers recieve decorations or promotions in or during or very shortly after battle. Most of the time, the recipients found them meaningless anyway as their lives were more important at that time (See any reputable reference on the battle for Stalingrad).

As always thanks for reading my rabble and have a pleasant morning.

[Stixx]

Quiet often soldiers where awarded for one particular thing they did. Charging a MG nest recovering fallen comrades etc.

Some of these acts only took a few seconds and an average CM battle is 30mins.

Why is it unrealistic to have men awarded for acts of bravery?

It would have no bearing on the game but would be a much loved feature to have medals warded at the end of a battle.