37mm knocks out PnzIV?

[Fluf]

I've just finished playing an excellent scenario which I'll not name to avoid spoiling, but I got it at Der Kessel. It involves a situation whereby I found a stuart tank involved in a duel with a panzerIV. Both were surprised, but the stuart got off the 1st shot and knocked out the MkIV at a fairly long range (>300 metres). This little stuart repeated the feat with a second MkIV before succumbing to lead poisoning. I would never have thought the 37mm capable of penetrating the front aspect of a medium tank at greater than close ranges - were these guns supplied with tungsten core or other high performance AP rounds in '44/'45, or were these just fluke hits?

[Agua Perdido]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fluf:

I would never have thought the 37mm capable of penetrating the front aspect of a medium tank at greater than close range<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The front turret armor on a PzIV isn't very thick--about 50mm with no slope (or very slight slope), as I recall. The 37 on a Stuart can handle that okay, even at a few hundred meters.

Head-on against a PzV, or even a StuG, is a different story.

Agua Perdido

[Kingfish]

Check out the stats of each vehicle (click on unit, hit enter). Compare armor pentration of the 37mm at 500 meters (using AP rounds) with the armor thickness of the Pz-IV.

[Pak40]

The 37mm is quite capable of penetrating the frontal armor of a MkIV, although it is a close call. The real advantage that a 37mm has over the MkIV is the higher rate of fire, so if the 37mm misses on it's first shot, it will fire the second shot before the MkIV would (assuming first shots are fired at the same time).

The only problem I have with CM and the 37mm is that it is modeled as a lethally as the larger caliber guns. In other words, for every armor penetration with a 37mm, you'll get a knock out. In reality, I think that even if a 37mm penetrates the armor of a tank, it may not knock it out. It may not even hurt a crew member. I'm not sure if it even has any explosives in it, maybe someone can shed some more light on this. Does anyone have any info on this subject?

[M Hofbauer]

the main gripe I have with the 37mm guns is their supernatural accuracy.

CMBO really makes you wonder why the Merkins ever bothered to replace the Stuart (with the Chaffee), it is a wonderfully (literally) effective tank in CMBO.

[Fluf]

Thanks for the responses - so the old stuart wasn't completely helpless than....

In answer to Pak40's question - I spoke with a former combat engineer and part of his job was recovering damaged Canadian Shermans (at night so he wouldn't get shot at) in Italy. He said that an armour penetration by solid shot would bounce around the interior of the tank tearing through crew in the way, and igniting fuel and/or ammunition. The big powerful guns (88mm) would sometimes shoot clean through the lighter tanks, occasionally missing anything vital and just leaving some instant ventilation holes and very worried crew. In this sense the penetration by a smaller calibre gun could be just as unpleasant. Incidentally, my uncle reported hearing the German 28mm squeeze-bore PaK gun being used in Sicily. He said that it had an incredibly loud and distinctive sound.

Most AP ammunition was solid shot of various types, (still true today), although as CM illustrates, the lower velocity artillery cannon (self-propelled included) were equipped with hollow charge anti-tank rounds for self defence against armour - don't know how common it was in real life though. I'm sure that there are many experts contributing to this message board who will know the details.

[Jarmo]

There is a difference between penetrations in CM. A penetration from a large calibre weapon is more likely to both knock out and to ingnite a tank.

Maybe the difference is not big enough, but it's there.

[Redwolf]

Also don't forget weak spot penetrations. 1% chance (unless tank has shot trap) of armour reduction by 30-50%.

[Andreas]

Stuart? Panzer IV? Der Kessel? Go and review it a The Scenario Depot

300m is really sort of close range for armoured combat, even in WW2.

[Klobster]

You think that's bad, I've had a Mk IV knocked out by stone throwing Volksturm before!

[Fieldmarshall]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Klobster:

You think that's bad, I've had a Mk IV knocked out by stone throwing Volksturm before!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You had a Panzer IV knocked out by a Volkssturm?.....Traitor!

[PiggDogg]

PzIV = uck! :mad: They make Shermans and even Stuarts look good.

Cheers, Richard

[Dogface21]

I agree with my fellow Dog, MkIVs have a hard time of it, at least when Im commanding them(sigh). Stuarts on the other hand are handy lil buggers. I just played a QB, and had 3 of them flank 2 MkIVs and a Panther, taking them all out, loosing one in trade. Chaffees are still my fav tho.

[Slapdragon]

If you are fighting with German Armor closer than 500 meters you are nearly in a melee. I think that it is a wonder that light tanks don't kill more enemy tanks at those ranges than they do.

Most of the issues people have with the Humbar, Stuart, Lynx and the rest of the light tanks and ACs is that people fail to protect their flanks well enough, shove armor in without support, and run armor forward (which is some scenarios is unavoidable) during the attack. Light tanks were designed to screen, harrass at flanks, provide intelligence, and disrupt -- but the are suckers for a faust or zook, and can have thier ass handed to them by relatively weak AT weapons in the hands of infantry and support units.

There are records of light vehicles killing German heavies, especially in confused melees. In one case, a Greyhound took a Tiger I it found on a forest road from the rear. In another, an Elephant sucommbed to Stuart hits in Italy just because the crew threw in the towel -- the vehicle was not destroyed and only had minot impact damage.

At a 1000 meters, the long 75 on the IV comes into better play, and the 37mm guns on the lights needs a miracle of a flank for any sort of penetration.

[Soddball]

German 37mm guns were mounted on the Stuka dive bomber for anti-tank work. IIRC the 37mm FlaK is also capable of ruining a Sherman's day from the side or rear.

[Redwolf]

Slapdragon, I think you mean the Daimler AC, not the Humber.

And the light stuff is much better against Bazooka-class weapons and panzerfausts. Because these weapons penetrate most tanks anyway, but the lighter tanks have the advantages of small silhuette and greater mobility. They are more vulnerable to hand grenades and the like, though.

The 37mm Flak penetrated a Sherman's front below 500m or so. If fired from a Stuka, it usual goes against the top armour, although I don't think such Stukas were used on the Western front 1944-45.

[ParaBellum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Most of the issues people have with the Humbar, Stuart, Lynx and the rest of the light tanks and ACs is that people fail to protect their flanks well enough, shove armor in without support, and run armor forward (which is some scenarios is unavoidable) during the attack. Light tanks were designed to screen, harrass at flanks, provide intelligence, and disrupt -- but the are suckers for a faust or zook, and can have thier ass handed to them by relatively weak AT weapons in the hands of infantry and support units.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said.

I never understand stories about "my Kingtiger was killed by Stuart from the rear...". Hey! How did that bugger come into your KT's rear?!!

Many people seem to neglect their flank cover. I'd rather buy one tank less and instead secure my flanks with cheap AT weapons.

Trouble with Daimlers/Greyhounds? By a 20mm Flak and your troubles will get knocked out in seconds.

Buy a 50mm gun or two and the Stuarts are not that danger anymore.

To the Panzer IV: Difficult to use. Even my lightly armoured Marders seem to survive better than these guys. Best thing is, never let anything hostile come closer then 700m.

At that distance, the Pz IV's guns is more than a match for most allied tanks and the high ROF guns on the Greyhound/Stuart won't penetrate it easily.

[Brewmeister]

I must be playing the same scenario because I am seeing the same thing. 5 PzIVs two of them from frontal shots, 4 ACs, 3 StuH42s with side shots and half a dozen halftracks and I lost only 1 Stuart with another one Gun Damaged. They were lost because I became too cocky from their success and exposed them for better shots. I should have kept them behind the buildings and waited for the keyhole shots I originally set them up for. Oh well another lesson learned.