Juardis Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 I'm playing against the AI in a canned scenario, but the situation could just as easily be against a human. My problem is that my infantry is low on ammo, as in LOW, they're scrounging around for ammo and taking it off the dead and wounded. Yet I still have 3, maybe 5 squads of enemy soldiers holed up in buildings in front of me. I have some armor support, but I'm not sure I can kill the enemy with what I have, so.... I have plenty of crews with plenty of ammo. (Yes, I was too careless with my armor thus the plethora of crews ). So my plan is to rush the buildings with my crews while providing some sort of suppression with the infantry that is low on ammo and the tanks I have. I might even send in one or two of my infantry units because they do still have grenades (I think, you don't run out of grenades do you?). My questions: 1. Do squads ever run out of grenades? 2. If I were playing against you, would you consider this a gamey tactic? My philosophy is win the battle any way you can and if that means sending crews into battle, then so be it. But others might think differently... ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Your crews will break long before they will accomplish anything. And the enemy gets lots of points for a dead crew IICR. BUT, after all, crews ARE soldiers and had at least infantry basic training. Fred ------------------ "I got signals, I got readings, in front and behind of us!" - PFC Hudson on LV-426 mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 This has been talked about quite a bit. Personally, I feel that it is 'gamey'. Vehicle crews should be preserved so they can be fitted out with a new vehicle--the job they are trained to do. I guess this is why the designers have updated crews to be less effective. Infantry crews--ie, AT and mortar crews were infantryman. So they should be able to fight. Vehicle crews, although probably bettered armed than just with pistols, should not be allowed to fight as infantry. Heck, they already cause enough heartache by drawing fire . "Hey, idiot! Engage the tank. The tank, stupid! Not that crew over there!!" ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Vehicle crews: Yes very unrealistic AND gamey. They were too valuable and should NOT be under the players control. CC got that right at least. Other crews: In the case of a US 60mm mortar, lets say,they WERE infantry and could be expected to use their carbines/side arms. But the funny thing is that 60mm mortar crews that have shot off all the mortar ammo CANT fire. I wish BTS would address these issues as it is a bigger deal than lets say TIGER I armor values. Maybe BTS should recruit someone with a steady head and good eye for game issues of importance and have them volunteer to sift these posts for threads they should reply too. They are too busy and support/game improvement has declined. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havermeyer Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Juardis... you're a gamey bahstahd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Gamey as gamey can be. Your crews will also die a needless death. If the defender has any kind of force in or around those buildings your crews will die. Case in point. My friend recently unwittingly moved a crew up to try and occupy / hide in a building. The single american squad in the building opened up on them at nearly point blank range (crews can't spot much anymore in ver1.03 as part of the "fixes" to prevent gamey play). 3 out of 5 of the crew died almost instantly. Remaining 2 went running back into nearby cover obviously broken / panicked. Point is that BTS has tried to make some changes to attempt to prevent players from gamey use of crews. Let us know how your experiment as using them as assualt troops turns out though. I for one would be interested in seeing how many of those pistol toting half blind crews survive the first turn or two of your assault. Mikester out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Brizee Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 I was doing a canned PBEM and had crews save me. I had a town being held by a platoon under attack from an Ami company wiht support. I had about 8 different crews in the town (bunker, Flak, 75mm Pak, 50mm, Pupchen, Halftrack etc.) I added them to the defense and it really did help me hold off the Amis, even if all some did was look to be "Infantry?" and thus get shelled, saving my real troops from it. One crew actually got over 16 kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 If you're worried that the AI will freak over gamey tactics, don't. It couldn't care less, and will always return for a re-match. Now, against a human, that's a different thing altogether... ------------------ The dead know only one thing - it is better to be alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Its seems that in v1.03 crews in buildings or used in defensive positions can be "somewhat" effective, I think most here that have tried to use crews (and I would say most here have at least tried this against the AI) have found that AFV crews do not attack very well and they can't see the enemy to target it very well as they have their spotting ability reduced to about 25-50 meters I think. My opinion is gamey or not do what you have to to win, but with that said...I think BTS has programmed the crews VERY effectively in v1.03 and you can use them to try to attack with but mostly you will just get them killed and then you will have an opportunity to "learn the hardway" how to NOT use bailed crews for anything other than guarding prisioners which they seem to do quite well. Just my opinion... -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 08-09-2000).] [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 08-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted August 9, 2000 Author Share Posted August 9, 2000 OK, so what do you suggest then. Vehicle crews are soldiers but if you think they should not be allowed to fight, then I have no chance for victory. If I allow them to fight, I have a small chance. Yes, they'll break easier but if I put them in C&C with a strong HQ, that'll increase their chances. If I'm successful in suppressing the enemy, that'll increase their chances even more. And in war I like a small chance for victory much better than no chance for victory. But what I'm hearing is that I should concede the middle of the map and wait until I can get some infantry with ammo in the proper position, which may be never. As for this being discussed before, I'm sure it has. Everything's been discussed before. Might as well put a canned response to every message up here. ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattus Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 The only uses I'v found so far for crews are 1) guarding prisoners, 2) Occupying "safe" victory locations in the rear; & occasionally 3) killing isolated AT teams - & only the AI leaves AT teams w/o support! At the end of the day they are just another resource & I have no probs with human opponents who want to use them any way they want. I do think the game limits imposed on crews encourages you not to use them like inf - which is good. Hell if the cooks can fight at Batogne... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Gamey, yes... If your doing it against the AI, then who cares. If all the AI has left is 3-5 squads in some buildings, then why not shell the buildings to rubble with your armor. You will... A. Keep hier heads down during the shelling... B. Cause good number of casualties when the building falls... C. Won't be using a gamey tactic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 I've used crews to shore up a weak defense (using circular logic, my defense HAS to be pretty weak if I have enough crews to shore up a weak defense) and I wouldn't have a problem with an PBEM opponent doing the same, but I'd be bugged if someone used crews in any sort of planned offense. Dunno, it would just bug me. Against the AI, hell, do whatever you like. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Personally I do not see it so much as gamey, as it is foolish. If I was playing you I would welcome you using your crews in this manner, more easy prey for my troops. Much rather face your crews than a real Infantry squad. It isn't like crews from a KOed tank or gun, were never commandered by an desperate commander, of course they were. The fact that a lost crew won't be there to man a replacement vehicle or gun, was irrelevant to the CO on the ground. His only worry was unit survival, and he would use ANY means necessary to accomplish that. As would I, as would any player who was worth a damn. The fact that they are not assault troops, doesn't matter, they are capable of a few tasks, and at times, deperate times require desperate measures. You are penalized (and rightly so) for using them like this though (reduced visibility, higher point loss for dead crews, etc.).. but I say, go for it, kill off more of your guys, and lose by an even higher margin Just my opinion. Bil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon44 Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 My two bits; 1. Tank and AFV crews were armed with the good ol' M-1911A1 pistol and the "might as well throw the gun at em and keep the bullets for the pistol" M-3 submachine gun or grease gun,,,so their offensive fire power is kind of limited although they were trained to recover the machine guns if possible 2. Gamey or not, and if any of you ever fight a PBEM battle with me, I wont throw up a fuss, I would say what the hell use the crews as infantry if it comes down to that. When I was in the cavalry we always used to say: Hmmmm that grunt looks smart and we need a new loader,,, no offense to the infantrymen in the crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 From a former infantryman (11H2P)-offense taken Not really, just wanted to check out the smilies.......Chris ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWolfTrevize Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 One time my tank crew actually killed somebody - German platoon HQ, in fact. Down to 2 men, I ordered them into a building to scout for my tanks. They saw a HMG and engaged it. Remarkably, they held it at bay long enough for my Shermans to blast the hell out of it. In real combat, though, they seem to fare badly for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talenn Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Simple Solution: Dont allow Crews to execute any 'move' type order EXCEPT for Withdraw. This would keep all movement AWAY from the enemy and would, IMO, take care of all said 'gamey-ness'etc. Talenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Talenn: Simple Solution: Dont allow Crews to execute any 'move' type order EXCEPT for Withdraw. This would keep all movement AWAY from the enemy and would, IMO, take care of all said 'gamey-ness'etc. Talenn<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Excellent idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cward Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rattus: The only uses I'v found so far for crews are <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I occasionaly have them run with other charging troops to draw fire. Only the AI will fall for this though.. it works great to get that turret rotating in the wrong direction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by :USERNAME:: Other crews: In the case of a US 60mm mortar, lets say,they WERE infantry and could be expected to use their carbines/side arms. But the funny thing is that 60mm mortar crews that have shot off all the mortar ammo CANT fire. Lewis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't remember if this came up in previous discussions about crew small arms, but the mortar crews don't have small arms ONLY while in good order. If they break and abandon the mortar, they become 'crews' armed with pistols, don't they? I think adding a nominal defense value was discussed for mortar and schreck/zook teams, but I don't see it addressed in the 1.03 readme. ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon44 Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Airborne, Heh Heh sorry man, you paratrooper types are usually too smart to be a loader anyway,,,,hmmmm how about being a gunner? The smiles are cool though huh? Give me a couple weeks to get this exercise were doing here at work done away with and lets see what kind of damage we can do to each other? Have fun!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Gamey? I think the question should be, is it suicidal...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dragoon44: Airborne, Heh Heh sorry man, you paratrooper types are usually too smart to be a loader anyway,,,,hmmmm how about being a gunner? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, I was. TOW ammo bearer, Assistant Gunner, GUNNER, and finally Squad leader and Section Leader (2squads)......Chris ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 Actualy, My only problem with crews lie with the mortar teams. After there ammo is spent they still insist on carring that damn mortar around. I've had several die on defense because they can't retreat fast enough... Oh and as for attacking with crews. My vote would be for Gamey. I've used them to take out a lone AT team, but not for any thing else really. Lorak ------------------ "someone you trust is one of us"..........the illuminati * http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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