What BigTimeSftwr should learn from Id Software and others

[simsjl]

After seeing post after post of "I wish CM2/3/4/5/etc would be battle/war X" I wish BTS would take a lesson from Id Software... I wish they would focus on making a great engine that is easily modifable (like Quake/Unreal/Half Life) so the user community could create various Mods.. Id (and others) have proven you don't lose sales by making a "modable" piece of software.

1. The CM community is very dedicated to the game (just look at the Mod community as it is ,even with the limited changes possible to CM). Some of the user graphics blow the BTS ones out of the water!

2. You don't lose sales for the next release because you make engine improvements that compel people to buy the next version (and also upgrade their mods to fit the new engine). Worry about the graphics engine, worry about network play.... Only put in core forces and vehicles.. Leave Esoteric forces, vehicles, buildings to the Mod community (let them create them if the want)!

Half Life is still so popular because of mods like CounterStrike... It is amazing how much work and quality a dedicated user community puts into mods... If someone released a FPS that you couldn't mod it wouldn't sell (not the reverse).

I for instance would like to see Korea or the Pacific theater... I don't want to wait 5 years.... BTS is risking another company recognizing this and releasing a truely "modable" game which I'm sure people would flock to. Also, what if your favorite theater was the Western Front 1944-45... Your favorite is left behind while new theaters get the new engines. For instance, I don't really care about the intial German invasion of France (oh boy, another French surrender and Axis Total Victory ), but that version will come out with an engine superior the both the West Front 1944-45 and the whole Eastern Front theater...

Anyway. just a wish.....

J Sims

[argie]

simsjl,

BF will not do te game modable. The units are hardcoded in the core engine and thy have reason for not do this open... Do a search for better explanations... (really I don't know how explain it better in English )

Ariel

[wadepm]

I for one hope they keep it the way it is. Too many mods will just turn the game into a freak show. The only really good "mods" are the maps, which can already be done. Keep the code tight and let's concentrate on game play.

OT- Argie, I just got back from a week in Buenos Aires, awesome. Are you in BA?

[killmore]

Few mods mean that more people will buy CM2. (No one can make new units)

Thats BTS point of few...

[Sparky9292]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Few mods mean that more people will buy CM2. (No one can make new units)

Thats BTS point of view...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree strongly.

I think that CM should allow people to add their own tanks, tweak the stats etc. It would only mean a longer life for the game engine and more sales. It's short sighted to be paranoid about modding.

As it is, I can go in and change stats for tanks, troops as I see fit with a hex editor, or just make a nice GUI program to do it. this will happen as it has for any other sucessfull game.

BTS was smart to provide a map editor, bmps, and wav's. They should not stop there. Continue the smart path by allowing people to develop tanks, troops, etc.

Don't worry about the game going wrong; this community will ignore mods that aren't realistic. The CM crowd is pretty anal.

[Guest MantaRay]

I for one hope that there are other companies that will make more wargames. I am sure that it is better that more companies are making these games, and I bet Steve and Charles would like this too. Wargaming is different than any other genre as it needs much more exposure than it currently has...even though a lot of gaming today owes it's founding because wargames were just about the only games worth having when PC's first started making games.

Ray

[ropey]

I'd go along with 'simsjl'. Let the community do the work of adding units bring on the Kiwis!), while BTS concentrate on the core stuff. I guess one problem is that it might reduce a tank (for example) to a generic box with different skins, whereas they currently seem to be modelled with more detail than that.

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Never leave your mind so open your brains fall out.

[Bastables]

I prefer to do with out the cheating that occurs in ‘open engine’ games such as Counter strike. And the advantages in dealing with a single community as opposed to the myriad forms that have occurred around Half-life; Action HL, firearms HL, Counter strike HL, Team fortress 1.5 HL etc.

[David Aitken]

I speak at risk of repeating or contradicting what has already been said on this subject. Combat Mission is more of a simulator than a game. Everything that goes into it has to be carefully vetted – this is true of the game (I use the term loosely) as it is, and as it would be if it were reworked to represent other wars.

Games like Quake and Half-life are eminently modifiable, because they have flashy engines, and the substance is of little concern as long as it plays well. The more bizarre your idea, the more effective the modification. But where specific wars are concerned, there is a right and a wrong way to do it.

BTS's goal is to accurately simulate historical combat, and for this reason, I doubt they would be happy to put their engine at the mercy of the general public. Doubtlessly some of the results would be impressive, but they would always be of questionable accuracy. It's not much use to suggest that the wargaming community would reject innaccurate modifications, considering even the technicalities of Combat Mission itself are the source of constant debate.

Other issues spring to mind, such as the aforementioned games being less revolutionary than Combat Mission in their genres, making it less of an issue to let people mess around with them – and the effect modifications might have on BTS's future plans. I think it's a bit early on in the life of Combat Mission for BTS to allow lots of variants and clones to appear.

David

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Guderian's anger was monumental. He struggled for words. "To say that the troops are to blame – look at the casualties!" he raged. "Look at the losses! The troops did their duty! Their self-sacrifice proves it!" Hitler yelled back. "They failed!" he raged. "They failed."

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ropey:

I'd go along with 'simsjl'. Let the community do the work of adding units bring on the Kiwis!), while BTS concentrate on the core stuff.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't. I think what is underlying this is a total failure to comprehend that the units are in fact a core part of the game, not just some skins or add-ons. If you open them up to modification, multiplayer gaming would go out of the window.

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Andreas

[Dschugaschwili]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky9292:

I disagree strongly.

I think that CM should allow people to add their own tanks, tweak the stats etc. It would only mean a longer life for the game engine and more sales. It's short sighted to be paranoid about modding.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really really don't think allowing people to add/modify tanks makes any sense. I have rarely seen good mods where the new weapon systems were balanced, but many of them that include nuclear missile launchers or some other über-weapon. I really don't want any bigger tanks than those already available in a game like CM. No third party mod-maker will spend nearly as much time on research and balancing the unit costs as BTS.

Dschugaschwili

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Erst hat man kein Glück, und dann kommt auch noch Pech dazu.

[Hamstersss]

Some of these arguments are just silly. If anyone looks at the Counterstrike Beta (Yes, beta), you will see that the mod is incredibly realistic, especially compared to the FPSs out there but even on its own. No big nuclear bombs or other crud, just weapons with recoil, realistic damage, no respawning, etc.

Also, it would not throw the multiplay out the window, because you would play multiplayer only between the mods. eg Noone expects or can play multiplay between Counterstrike and Half-Life or Team Fortress Classic. If someone made CM:Korea, you would not expect, nor could you, play multiplay against CMBO.

Finally, the core executable is compiled in such a way that it cannot be added to. However, this can be changed.

And anyone who tells me that a bunch of you grogs couldn't get together and make sure all the stats weren't spot on totally accurate should have their head examined.

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Did someone compare this to the Ealing comedies? I've shot people for less.

-David Edelstein

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks:

And anyone who tells me that a bunch of you grogs couldn't get together and make sure all the stats weren't spot on totally accurate should have their head examined.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You obviously have not had a look at the 'Panther Turret Speed', '88cm accuracy', 'Arty vs. tanks' threads lately?

Also, I would rather wait to play CM-Korea in six years than have some crappy user-modified half-baked version now that may shut the market for the future development.

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Andreas

[hakujin]

Whether people like it or not, mods are the future of gaming. Half-Life must be the best selling game of all time that no one plays. People only buy the game to play the mods. I think in 5 years, buying a game that is hardcoded will be like buying a computer that wasn't "upgradeable" 6 or 7 years ago (older folks may remember when "upgradeable" was the action word when buying a computer.)

The good aspect for game developers is that it maintains interest in a game and lengthens it's shelf life.

The downside is that the original developers actually have to GIVE PEOPLE A REASON TO BUY THE NEW GAME OTHER THAN PUTTING A "2" IN THE NAME. It's more work for them and they have to be more creative in their game design. I wouldn't want to buy CM2 just because they added a few new units and said "Now we're in Korea." I want an 18-year-old game-designer-in-waiting to do that kind of stuff. If I spend money, I want a new engine, 3d graphics, better AI...things that require senior developers.

[PeterNZer]

Alowing CM to be modded? Dumb idea, sheesh.

Several reasons why:

1) It just doesn't make sense economically.

Imagine if there were mods for all 20th Century wars after 12 months. How interested are you going to be in future CMs? And no, the wargaming community is LESS interested in buying a game simply because it now looks prettier. This genre and its audience are TOTALLY different to the FPS shooter crowd who love flashy trinkets, (just look at Q3A). End result is the market just gets bored with the whole CM engine idea and CM2 on fails.

No, people would not keep buying the game because of the mods. In a wargame people expect a company to do all the work and research and will generally trust their judgement. With mods, people have to rely on the judgement of someone of sometimes dubious heritage.

Lets look at other games. For the Close Combat series there was the 'real' mods, which are great. But is there anything else worth touching? The community isn't big enough to support a huge mod base, and never will be!

2) Modding will ruin multiplayer

When you have a game like half-life which has a player base that must be close to one million by now, with about 500,000 playing Counter-Strike or another mod NIGHTLY then perhaps you'll have the player base to support lots of different versions. Even in the peak of Close Combat support the chat-rooms were never overloaded with players. Imagine having to find someone, then juggle the mods till you reach agreement.

3) why bother?

Why bother! Do you hate the game right now? Do you not get enough gameplay? What's the problem? For Steve and Charles to put the unpaid work in there has to be a pretty good reason and economically the support just isn't there.

It's my belief that mods are great, but not for all games. CM already has the most flexibility in a game i've played in ages, (soon) 2 multiplayer options, generate your own maps and scenarios, and a fantastic quick battle generator, (I will buy CM2 just for this feature really.. so much replayability).

Furthermore, making a mod like Counter Strike is childs play compared to modding a CM type game. Weapons get assigned a damage value not based on much real world knowledge, but simply on gameplay and intuition. A mod for CM would require a totally different approach and would open up so much debate I think I for one would get tired of the bitching that would swamp the forums.

I guess, I just don't see the point of it in this context.

PeterNZ

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hamsters Wrote:

PeterNZ: He hasn’t proven to be particularly valiant but I think he’d make a good doorman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Speaking as a CIS student who is trying to gain the knowledge to get into the games industry, I still feel this game does NOT and should NOT be made mod-able. I currently am learning how to work with Level Editing using various tools including WC and UE as well as some generic Engines. Yet even tho I am starting to get into this area to compliment my school work, I still realize that this game Is based on historical facts and figures. This stuff has been painstakenly researched and tested, and everybody and his brother should'nt be able to mess with the units codes as it would allow cheating and it would unbalance the game.

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[gaffertape]

Player 1: Which version are you using? I've got the 62/F mod with the additional Panther upgrade by Squiffy. I've also converted to the MG34 and have added RufusG's Sherman side skirts.

Player 2: Oh sorry, I have the CM Lightning mod with upgraded Hellcats and Stuarts, along with the Brenmod and GaryF's DUKW conversion.

Even if all of the potential mods were well researched and advisable, not everybody would want the same ones. BMPs and WAVs are different as they only affect the individual, but if you start modding unit stats then you have essentially created a different game. The painstaking work that BTS put into the project would be cruelly diluted.

This isn't a blanket statement - Some games really do benefit from alterations. I just don't think that CM is one of them. I for one would only accept unit statistic mods if BTS themselves were releasing them, AND the majority of the community used them.

GAFF

[This message has been edited by gaffertape (edited 10-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by gaffertape (edited 10-18-2000).]

[Pak40]

Mods are NOT a good idea for CM. This is a historical game based on real world physics. If BTS were to make it mod-able then we'd see 15 different versions of CM, some of these with unrealistic physics values (e.g. a Stuart that has an AP round which can take out a King Tiger with a frontal shot).

Everyone and his momma would be "tweaking" the combat values in the game to suit his or her own tastes(Close Combat is a perfect example). It's best if BTS be lone keeper of all the values in the game. This way we can all be compatible with each other because there is only one version.

[Herr Oberst]

simsjl,

Point #1: Read the Manifesto and get the background.

Point #2: Read some of the older threads that are "technical" in nature, from before the Gold Demo.

BTS owns the game, and HERE is where we players make the mods. We just don't implement them, BTS does in a manner that fits the game and does not unbalance the modeling engine.

We all want historical accuracy. If you disagree with the performance of some weapon system, do the research, present the facts, present your argument.

[Dalton]

I think there is a middle ground between fully modifiable & development only by BTS.

The model that may benefit everyone is where the user community can develop 'mods' that BTS reviews and incorporates if they feel the mod meets thier exacting standard.

Something similar to this is my understanding of how Linux development is done. Anyone can extend or modify the Linux code, but you need to have your software approved and accepted before it will become part of the generally available libraries. (A friend of mine does Linux development...)

How I envision this working with CM:

- BTS would publish the API for units. (Which may or may not be easy!

- the user community would translate their favorite unit to use the published API.

- the user would play test their 'mod'

- the user would submit thier mod to BTS for review. Along with a justification & validity description.

- BTS would evaluate the mod either accepting, rejecting or asking for refinement.

- accepted mods would be available as part of the next release, or possibly available as patches/expansions.

I would recommend that BTS find a reliable screener for these mods, that would only pass on high quality modifications for evaluation by BTS.

...Dalton

[Lutz]

I would like to have user modified/designed units, so here is my suggestion how this might work without enabling cheating.

Add a coded checksum to all units that have been designed/approved by BTS.

Now, when the game starts, it will check all available units for this checksum. If it is not present or wrong, you will be given a warning that modified units are used. Now you would be given the option to play on or to quit. If you choose to play on, checksums will be compared for all modified units on both computers, to make sure that both players have the same versions.

This way you can use all your favorite Überweapons in a single player game against the AI and you could use custom units in a game with someone you trust.

If a mod proves to be accurate, it could get the "BTS stamp of approval", so that it can be used in all games.

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Lutz

Senior Junior Member

[David Aitken]

hakujin wrote:

> Half-Life must be the best selling game of all time that no one plays. People only buy the game to play the mods. I think in 5 years, buying a game that is hardcoded will be like buying a computer that wasn't "upgradeable" 6 or 7 years ago

What does this say about the current standard of games? It would seem that no-one makes well-rounded games packages any more – something you'll want to play through as the creators intended. Now developers just pump out flashy new first-person shooter / flight sim engines, no thought goes into substance, and the only longeivity value is that you can modify it until you're blue in the face.

The 'upgradeable computer' analogy is a perfect example. Computers are disposable – on their own they're worthless, it's what you do with them that matters, and they're constantly being overshadowed by new technology. That's all games seem to be now – disposable technology. No creativity, no imagination, no story, just an engine for people to play with.

I must cite as an example Bungie's first-person shooter Marathon, which was released about six years ago. At the time, its technology was pretty impressive. But the reason people bought the game, and the reason it was still being discussed years after its release, was because of the intricacies of its storyline.

Bungie spent about as much time conceiving the story as they did programming the engine and producing the graphics, and it made the game about ten times more absorbing and memorable. People weren't particularly interested in modifying it, because there was so much to be had in the original release. It is for this reason that Marathon – game though it may be – still has a place in my heart, while others such as Doom, and even the latest, flashiest offerings like Unreal, are quite forgettable. Pretty, modifiable engines are ten a penny, but who really makes GAMES any more?

Now, BTS haven't put any work into a story – the story of the Second World War is already written. But they haven't just pumped out a fancy engine for people to play with – they have put an incredible effort into researching all the tiny little details of each of the plethora of weapons and vehicles which have gone into the game. This is the substance of Combat Mission, the equivalent of Marathon's storyline – what sets it apart from other games, and makes it worth playing.

Companies like ID, who can't seem to do anything but churn out a new, flashier, first-person shooter engine every other year (a new Doom? Gosh, how exciting), NEED to make their engines modfiable, otherwise people wouldn't care about the new release. There's nothing new – no story, no substance – so instead of letting people play the GAME, they open up the ENGINE and let people play with THAT.

If 'upgradability' is the future of games, I lament the death of creativity and imagination in the industry. But developers such as BTS, who really do produce games with substance, should certainly not put their creations at the mercy of those who have grown to believe that the purpose of a game is to be modifiable.

David

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Guderian's anger was monumental. He struggled for words. "To say that the troops are to blame – look at the casualties!" he raged. "Look at the losses! The troops did their duty! Their self-sacrifice proves it!" Hitler yelled back. "They failed!" he raged. "They failed."

[Cyrano]

Couple stipulations:

1) Of course this is BTS's game -- and what a grand game it is... ...Therefore, if they decide to permit mods, then mods there shall be. That said, the folks drawing all the cool new "skinz" strike me more as the people I grew up with who spent hours sweating over their dioramas with airbrushes than those who whipped up CounterStrike in the comfort of their garage. I imagine one friend in particular, who I regrettably have lost track of, being one of the people who have given us that REALLY awesome STUG texture

2) If there are mods ("real" CS-type mods), and you have them on your PC, I WILL NOT play with you. I've deleted CS from my harddrive after taking one too many hits from an aimbot-armed k3wl dOod...tinkerers, few of whom possess the patience and dedication it takes to actually PLAYTEST things, will tend to destroy everything they touch, much like the kid who takes apart the clock "just to see how it works".

There is an elegance to the CM system, particularly BTS' remark of long-standing that the graphics are only representing the code's internal calculus, that I would not have laid to ruin by mods.

Regards,

Cyrano

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"Watching others make friends, as a dog makes friends. I mark the manner of these canine courtesies and say, 'Thank God, here comes another enemy'" -- Rostand

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dalton:

I think there is a middle ground between fully modifiable & development only by BTS.

The model that may benefit everyone is where the user community can develop 'mods' that BTS reviews and incorporates if they feel the mod meets thier exacting standard.

Something similar to this is my understanding of how Linux development is done. Anyone can extend or modify the Linux code, but you need to have your software approved and accepted before it will become part of the generally available libraries. (A friend of mine does Linux development...)

How I envision this working with CM:

- BTS would publish the API for units. (Which may or may not be easy!

- the user community would translate their favorite unit to use the published API.

- the user would play test their 'mod'

- the user would submit thier mod to BTS for review. Along with a justification & validity description.

- BTS would evaluate the mod either accepting, rejecting or asking for refinement.

- accepted mods would be available as part of the next release, or possibly available as patches/expansions.

I would recommend that BTS find a reliable screener for these mods, that would only pass on high quality modifications for evaluation by BTS.

...Dalton<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK

While this sounds like a realistical and well balanced suggestion I would like to propose that this one statement is at the crux of the issue:

"- BTS would evaluate the mod either accepting, rejecting or asking for refinement."

BTS is ONLY 4 guys, and TWO of them are prinicples and ONLY one of them (Charles) writes ALL the code.

While this may be a successful model for the devepoment of an open archtecture operating system like Linux, I think that the requirement for (largely) one person (Charles) to "evaluate the mod either accepting, rejecting or asking for refinement." would make the man power cost of such a venture FAR FAR more costly that the actual (dubious) worth of the opportunity for nuts like me to screw around with the code and give the long 88 better long range accuracy and model German long range optics, and make that targeting algorythym, penetrate thicker armour.

I would propose the change and they would say huh, no.

If you want OPEN code just look at this BBS many people here have proposed features changes and concepts that have made it into the game. This is the way users SHOULD contribute to a small privately owned game code like CM.

The Bottom line is that I would not want to see BTS overly burdened with " evaluating the mod either accepting, rejecting or asking for refinement."

When they could be working on something more productive. Your suggestion works very well for a LArge open archecture operating system because there are a many active contributors and and many evalutators that have to time to approve and reject suggestions.

I can't speak for BTS but if I were Steve and Charles I would NEVER consent to opening up the original game code to changes only to be besiged by proposals and suggestiong from Nut cases like my self that would change all their hard work, and attention to detail and historical military accuracy.

I Say NO thanks to the whole thing,

BIG BUT...

BUT it would be nice if they would let folks modify or change the 3D skeletons that underlie the textures, so we could mod the bridges and mod the houses and we could mod the rubble and you KNOW if they lets us we would mod the vehciles and offer to build NEW 3D models of new vehicles and new structures.

Perhaps they could, in preparation for work on CM2 post the specs or Details of what scale, or how many polygons or what ever the details of how they build their 3D models, in what 3D modeling format, and I bet they would be overwhelemed by the voltunatry suppport they would get from mod makers who would also just LOVE to build some 3D models for vehciles terrain bridges and building for CM2.

Now that would be a very useful and helpful user driven grassroots contribution.

Thanks for listening.

-tom w

[GI Tom]

I would strongly disagree with allowing engine mods to be allowed in CM. This is not a game as some people claim, but more of a simulation. (Yes, it is a game in a sense) Halflife, Quake, and the others are true games. They are not simulations. A simulation needs to have specific stats/qualities/details to make it a simulation. You should not be able to tamper with those.

Furthermore, for that person who said people would flock to another game that had modifiable engine mods, simply not true. The CM community, from what I've seen, is rightfully caught up on historical accuracy, realism and truthfulness. Any mods made by third parties would be frowned upon unless substantial evidence and facts were brought to light.

Also, as someone else stated, read the manifesto. I don't feel that BTS is caught up on making a bajillion sales. Do they want to make money?? Sure. But if they hold true to their manifesto, then creating a realistic simulation outweighs the need for increasing their already successful sales. BTS's vision appears clear and focused. To produce a product that correctly resembles combat events in WWII. Allowing another person to tamper with the engine would completely erase that purpose.

Also, the multiplayer aspect WOULD be incredibly unreal. Would I want to face a hovering Panther with 4000 inches of armor and dual 600mm turrets? Certainly not. (I know that's going overboard a little..but you get my point).

In closing, BTS doesn't appear to be held up on swaying people in one direction or the other. They have put out their product and stood by it while it became a success. They took their shot, and it has paid off. Making the engine modifiable would not benefit what they have accomplished to date. Actually, doing that would probably cause more people in the CM community to leave than it would attract in new business. There's my dollar's worth.

GI Tom

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To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of wierd sandwich.