OT- The U.N., the U.S. Army, and me

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix:

So West pointers don't have the respect of their men. Well... I don't buy it. In fact there's this guy who graduated from there, pretty good armor guy too. Read this speach.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me neither. I have found West Point graduates were better LTs. IMO.

Cav

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout:

I always find this to be funny. Yes the U.S. was, and likely still is, behind on its "dues" yet the amount the UN was behind to the U.S. was nearly three times the dues amount.

Cav<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, there are outstanding debts on both sides. It's a conundrum. Neither side objects especially to grandstanding, and I don't think either side is likely to pay up first. Which leads to an impasse. I think that one side needs to make a good faith effort to start paying down their debts, and I think it's more likely to come from the US. Quixotic? You bet I am

------------------

Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[Echo]

A USMC corporal won his honorable discharge in '97, in federal court, on the grounds he swore to uphold and defend the US Constitution, not the charter of the U.N.. I applaud him.

[Vanir]

Well, I won't get into any mud slinging over whether we should vote for Bush or Gore, but I will say this: The idea that the UN is manipulating the US is ridiculous. If anything it's the exact opposite which is true. People who argue this are usually isolationists or "black helicopter" conspiracy theorists. The fact of the matter is that the UN has no real leverage over the US. The UN has nothing we really need, therefore how are they manipulating us? Name one US peacekeeping mission that the UN suckered us into. Haiti? Somalia? Bosnia? Kosovo? Nope. In fact, the bombing of Kosovo was never authorized by the UN at all and I don't (correct me if I'm wrong) think Haiti was either. We went into all of those of our own free will. Whether they were a good idea is another arguement...

Note that there is nothing wrong with being an isolationist. It is a legitimate ideology although I personally don't agree with it. All I'm saying is that when you here people saying that the US military is being suborned to the UN, they are actually trying to further their own political agenda. If you don't like the way our military is being used, blame our government, not the New World Order.

------------------

No, there will be no sequels. Charles and Steve have given up wargame design in disgust and have gone off to Jamaica to invest their new-found wealth in the drug trade. -Michael emrys

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 09-07-2000).]

[Renaud]

Wow, that's pretty amazing Echo. It's heartening to know that the classical liberal conception of individual rights is not completely forgotten. My favorite part of the oath is the part about defending the constitution from enemies both foreign AND DOMESTIC. In extremis that could mean some gang of power-hungry politicians and their cronies.

I'd be interested in hearing the military enlistement oaths of other countries. Any non-US personnel here?

My CO in 2/3 ACR E Troop started out a buck private in the 101st and worked his way up to O3. He was a fantastic guy that most of us would have followed into great danger. I remember his WP successor was pretty uninspiring by comparison.

Ren

[swamp]

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: swamp ]</p>

[Splinty]

MJ I spent 10 yrs on active duty (Mechanized Infantry, not too much different from Armored Cav these days)and I can tell you that even if you are deployed on a UN backed mission you will be totally under local US control (from at least Division level on down) and that it is very unlikely that you will even actually talk a UN rep. much less take orders from one. The US military insists on C&C of it's own forces and being the big boy on the block probably will control the whole operation anyway.

------------------

Nicht Schiessen!!

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Echo:

A USMC corporal won his honorable discharge in '97, in federal court, on the grounds he swore to uphold and defend the US Constitution, not the charter of the U.N.. I applaud him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have any details on this? All cases I know of have had the soldiers losing. What is the USMC oath? Similar to the Army's? I am pretty sure it is. In that case a soldier swears to uphold the Consitution and to OBEY the orders of the President and officers appointed over him/her. How one can pick and choose what part of the oath they like is beyond me.

Cav

[PeterNZer]

I have to go to work now, so only a quick comment and no chance to read the thread yet..

The UN is made up of its members, one of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful memeber is the US. It is EXTREMELY rare that the UN ever 'forces' anyone to do anything.

The UN can't have 'power' over the US beyond what the US agrees with. More than a few times the US has pissed off most of the UN by totally going counter to common world opinion.

If I were you, I would be much more worried about your government sending you into Colombia for the 'war against drugs'. Where you could fullfill the role of a 'military advisor'... more than a few of those have died recently in action.

PeterNZ

[BomBeer]

Don't worry about the UN. The UN will not send you anywhere. It's our own gov you gotta worry about.

BomBeer

------------------

IYAAYAS

[PeterNZer]

I have, as a non-US type, (I won't say American.. it really pisses of the rest of the continent I hear haha), always found it a little odd how the UN was seen as some evil overlord.. I'm not sure much of the rest of the developed world thinks that way at all. Still, as my ancestors in North England would say "There's nought as queer as folk".

Anyway, to the topic at hand, Min Joe. You have to accept that the govt will probably ask you to do things you don't like the idea of at least a few times in your career in the forces. Doesn't really matter where you are serving in the world I would say that is the case. Happen in civy-street as well, but we generally won't die if our bosses get it wrong

As for the UN, of course it's flawed! The US started it, (kidding ok!). It's flawed because it's a huge-ass organistion running on no budget, (seen UN in brussels? I've been told it's a grotty building/etc) trying to help as many people as possible.

BUT, and here's a really big one, it DOES often do things that are pretty darn fantastic. 90% of the time you would never ever hear about it.

For example

- Cambodia

- East Timor, (with reservations I'll admit, but those problems stemed more from other areas)

- Mediation and peacekeeping by AFRICA in africa, there's some good success here.

- border monitoring all over the world

There's more, but who wants to bore you all with details.

If the US was to abandon the UN, the UN would quite literally, come undone. No argument there, the US is an extremely important member of the UN.

Without a sense of the UNs worth, many countries would stop listening to it and stop using it as a forum. That would be disasterous in my mind.

What the UN does really well is offer another channel for a country to put its point forward that isn't war. In history, if countries had problems they would talk back and forth until either it was resolved or there was a war to resolve it. The UN provides an extremely valuable public forum for countries with issues and it allows these problems to be voiced, heard and then dealt with through the MANY UN mechanisms.

You never hear about this stuff, it's not exciting enough for the press. I mean, how many of you would find it interesting to know that two unheard of states had a border disagreement, were considering mobilising, took it the UN and eventually hammered out some agreement or Fiji agreed to send 500 peace keepers to monitor their border, (One of Fiji's biggest exports is PeaceKeepers, earn a lot of good foreign money haha).

You certainly would hear about it if it reached a war where the neighbours got involved, followed by others.. and so it goes.

The UN also does a lot of valuable work in aid, development, environmental affairs and so on.

I find it disapointing that so many people seem ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. The UN isn't perfect but it's the best thing we've got and the world would be a poorer place without it.

PeterNZ

[Phil the Dill]

Minnesota Joe: your a typical ignorant American, You believe whole heartedly what you see on TV and then ram your jingoistic patriotism down everyone's throat - remember there is a whole world out there not just the USA: the land of the free (and all the rest of that self-centred crap you all seem to spout on about).

Grow Up!

------------------

"Your Mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries"

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Chill out Phil, no one wants this locked up. I don't think the "Liberials" are ruining the military at all. 12 aircraft carrier battlegroups proves that theory wrong. The problems with the US military is not the President (although I wish our Commander in chief had some military training if he gets to use it) as much as the US is a Democracy. So many people trying to get the military to do so many diffrent things is the main problem. The military industrial complex, penetagon, congress, and the president; half want to look good for voters and the other half wants to get rich. Not a good recipe.

As for the U.N. don't worry about them. Worry about american based corporations. Seems like anytime a country trys to seize US corp. assests the US Army gets sent in. hmmm Did Texaco have and oil rigs in Kuwait, yes? How about East Timor, nope. No one cared in the UN or US while familys were being killed in East Timor 30 years ago. But we did not let Saddam stay in Kuwait for very long.

Sorry so long guys, I know you got emails to check.

[pzvg]

First of all Joe,"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends" (old song look it up) As many have pointed out, as a grunt the job is to go where they send you. And note, it doesn't take an oil company or pressure from the Uniformed Nations to send you out for no good reason (Grenada)

As for the political asides that keep turning up here, can it guys, there isn't a candidate running that I respect or plan on voting for, and hasn't been for a while.

Basically Joe, good luck try to have fun, I'd recommend learning something more useful than combat arms, (the army has layoffs,called force reductions) combat skills aren't very useful outside,no matter what the commercials say.

And should you find yourself in a conflict somewhere for whatever reason, bear in mind that U.S. policy is up for debate, survival is not, so keep your young ass down, ya dig bro?

------------------

Pzvg

"Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

[PeterNZer]

VOTE THE FICCUS

hehe

couldn't resist.

PeterNZ

(Mike Moore worshiper)

(yes we get him here in the UK)

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phil the Dill:

Minnesota Joe: your a typical ignorant American, You believe whole heartedly what you see on TV and then ram your jingoistic patriotism down everyone's throat - remember there is a whole world out there not just the USA: the land of the free (and all the rest of that self-centred crap you all seem to spout on about).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Judging by what I've seen from this board lately, the typical Australian is a nazi loving skinhead. Talk about a screwed up outlook Pickle Phil...

Minnesota Joe asked a question about a TV show he saw and how it might affect his service in the Army. That's all.. nothing more, nothing less.

If your opinions of the USA run that deep with hatred, you oughta just boycott anything American, to include CM, because it's obvious the USA is the great Satan.

On the other hand, I happen to like Australia and its people.

[Fred]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Minnesota Joe asked a question about a TV show he saw and how it might affect his service in the Army. That's all.. nothing more, nothing less.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And as this has nothing to do with the computer game named Combat Mission, I hope that this thread will be locked soon, before another flamewar erupts.

Fred

[PeterNZer]

Ah, we can all avoid a flamewar, just ignore what'shisname, (see I can't even remember) who posted a flame troll. Move on, nothing to see here.

As for your Q. Min Joe, what do you think of all these answers so far? I think it's a pretty interesting thread so far.

UN service? Don't worry, after all the poster does say "see the world!" doesn't it? A bit of UN service has got to be better than sitting in a army base somewhere.. also most UN service is pretty damn quiet, eg border monitoring, election monitoring asistance. etc etc.. and you can have an interesting time as well I've been told, and you can help people!

I know from the NZ troops that they were widely loved in Bosnia because they got stuck in. If there was a bombed out school, they'd be in there with everyone else helping to rebuild, (ausies and Kiwis are like that), if something was needed by the locals, they'd work hard to get it.

I reckon it'd be pretty cool to help people out in that situation. You never know, might pique your interest in all sorts of post-forces directions!

PeterNZ

[swamp]

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: swamp ]</p>

[Ubermac]

(takes a deep breath).

The U.S. and the U.N...hmm....is there a link at all? No offense but if the U.S. participates in U.N. operations, they do so practically solo.

Look at Bosnia. They didn't participate (on a scale anyone cares to mention) in the U.N. peacekeeping operations there until the nations who did started to get a grasp on the situation. And then what happens....it turns NATO.

If the U.S. joins a U.N operation they run the show, therefor it's not that untrue to say any U.N. operation which includes the U.S is a U.S run operation (militarily speaking anyway).

If anyone wants to join any army, but doesnt want to be send away...dont join in the first place.

I'm a soldier, no politician....so all i can say is that from a military point of view, the U.N. sucks imensely...again, Bosnia proves that.

To conclude i want to this off my chest: I think the U.S will never leave the U.N because it wouldn't want to be the sole country responsible for a military operation half way across the globe. And let's face it, if anyone threatens the U.S.'s economy in any way action will be taken.

[swamp]

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: swamp ]</p>

[PeterNZer]

Hm.

Well since i've done a paper on the IMF and WB I am more than aware of their invovlement in various countries. (In particular I studied Nicaragua, but i also looked at mexico, south east asia and so on).

As for the shinning path being a democratic movement.. please.. Just because there are rebels who are counter a government you don't like doesn't mean the Rebels are good! The Shinning Path are pretty damn nasty.

The RUF are another case where the rebels are often MUCH worse than anything the government, even if it was a lackey to a foreign power, could ever dish up.

I think i'm one of the few who thinks that there is in fact, hope for the WB and IMF. Until 5-10 years ago it still considered itself totally a 'non political' organisation involved with finance and economics, an organisation that didn't have to deal with 'petty' develoment issues.

In recent years it has been slapped around a bit by the worlds nations, (GO THE USA IN THIS ROLE RECENTLY WOOO!), saying it needs to think of the social costs of its actions as well.

I'm hopefull that the IMF/WB will do a serious rethink.. i understand it is slowly invovled in that process now. It's going slow, but it is moving.

Only downside with voting Nader is that it bassically splis the liberal vote, ensuring even more than conservatives get in.. and some of those people, frankly, scare me, (Jesse Helms for example.. what a horrible man).

Still, it's not my country, so no matter.

PeterNZ

[dfgardner]

From a former Army Commissioned Officer allow me to add my thoughts.

First of all, thanks for your upcoming service.

Next, remember, even in peacetime, the mission of the Armed Forces is to be prepared to fight; train hard, listen to the officers and NCOs appointed over you. They've been where you are (or will be). Concentrate on learning the skills that will make you a better soldier and leader.

If you've chosen a Combat Arms you'll be in for long hours in the motor pool and arms room, much time in the field, and cold, hungry, tired and wet.

As you progress in rank remember: soldiers are not "managed" to succeed, they must be led there. Follow the basic leadership rules: don't eat until your men have eaten, don't sleep until they have slept, play no favorites (remember, as a future leader you may have to order some of them to do things in which they stand a great risk of being killed); be fair, but firm.

Take a lesson very accurately modeled in CM, for a unit to be successful,leaders must lead from the front.

Finally, enjoy yourself. One day you'll look back on the things you saw/did; soldiers you served with; situations you were in with a touch of nostolgia, although as your going through it you'll wish you were someplace else.

You are about to join a long heritage of service that extends back over 200 years.

Make us Proud!

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swamp:

1% of the united states citizens own 90% of it's wealth.......

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this is different from what other countries?

Back to the original question, when we (the 1st ID) were ordered to deploy to Saudi Arabia, there were a lot of soldiers (and civilians) who disputed our reasons for going there. A choice few took rather drastic steps to avoid overseas service (like getting pregnant and breaking their own limbs. No, these are NOT urban legends, I personally knew the people who did it). I heard of similar discontent from friend who served in Somalia and Haiti. Basically what it boils down to is that you get sent where the Army wants to send you. Once you sign the dotted line, you don't have a choice in the matter. Consider this before joining if it is something that concerns you.

If you decide serving under UN auspices is not your cup of tea but still want to join the military, why not consider the Coast Guard? It sounds silly to some, but it is a uniformed service and a very repectable one at that. AFAIK, they can be deployed only during wartime (when they are absorbed by the Navy).

------------------

Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[pzvg]

Ok Joe, you got some answers,and you got an earfull of some folks's outre opinions, hehe welcome to the real world I think it would be time to let this one sink to obscurity,since too many folks with axes to grind decided to come in and polarize yet another open-minded thread.

(don't bother with flames or passionate rhetoric, I'm actually unimpressed with the former,and bored by the latter)

------------------

Pzvg

"Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"