John Kettler Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 One of the things not presently in CM that I'd really love to see is a detailed rundown of what the opposing side started with, the complete enemy order of battle, unless an operation is in progress. Ideally, this would be laid out in such a way that a single glance would show that,say,7 of 10 251s were lost by game's end, along with two out of five squads of infantry. As it is, I can only approximate it after the fact by painstakingly hunting around the battlefield for the markers of killed and damaged units, then adding them up. Time consuming and unsanitary! Also, as the frequent recipient of deadly artillery fire I am keenly interested in the foe's available fire suppport at game start--by type, size, quantity, FO type and FO quality if known. There is no way to figure this out after the game other than by counting craters and noting their sizes. And I've learned to my sorrow how big a role fire support can play on success in battle. It would be helpful to have some indicator as to the force one just fought--elements of a recon battalion, reinforced mech company or whatever. This would be much easier for most wargamers to relate to than an unadorned body count which takes no account of unit organization. Which would you rather lose, a company of cooks or a company of veteran line infantry? Right now they're both either corpses or wounded, with no sense whatever of how they really relate to maintaining combat power. This issue should really become important in operations and especially in the MetaCampaign. Finally, is there a quick and dirty way to get even a rough briefing for the Instant Battles? I stand in awe of what you've already done, and that's without having yet tried a single scenario, let alone an operation. With deep respect and gratitude, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 OH LORD Mr. Kettler, where to start?? First of all, your first suggestion would just shoot the idea of FOW all to hell. The whole idea of fighting a battle is that you DON'T know what the enemy has. Ha! Well actually all your suggestions are pretty much defeating the purpose of the game. What do you mean you want to know exactly how much and what kind of artillery the enemy has to start out with? Again, that shoots FOW all to hell. As for descriptions on what type of enemy you have killed, that is also rolled into FOW. What do you want next, a detailed map of where the enemy is hiding? Have you even played CM at all??? Sounds like you haven't. Or better yet, have you even read any of the past 63,000 posts. You've basically contradicted everything we've discussed for the past 6 months or so. Are you even the correct person behind the name?? ------------------ "I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 06-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon_S Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Maxipad - you dumb redneck! He's talking about AFTER the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler: Also, as the frequent recipient of deadly artillery fire I am keenly interested in the foe's available fire suppport at game start--by type, size, quantity, FO type and FO quality if known.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well Jon_S, maybe some of what he wants is a detail list after the battle, BUT the above quote doesn't look that way!!! ------------------ "I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Jon, How can you question the Genius of Maximanus? ------------------ "Even the Brady Bunch could beat a company of French"-Carentan (slightly paraphrased) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon_S Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 {tries to put on tolerance hat} At the end of a game you can click on enemy units and see what they have left. What this doesn't tell you is what they began with. For most units (inf, AFV) this doesn't matter since it really isn't that variable. However, for FOs it is, and John's point is that it would be nice to know what they started with. For a supposed genius, you're pretty friggin' stoopid. What's your definition of genius anyway - an IQ of 47? [This message has been edited by Jon_S (edited 06-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 *content snipped by radical chat-room nazis who don't want the truth to be known ... lol* I would appreciate a summary screen after the battle is over, with details on what the enemy had to start with in addition to the casualty report. Maybe make this final report interactive so you can click on some neat icons to see which unit killed what etc. But all of this is not really very important to me, especially if it would take too much effort to implement. MK [This message has been edited by Kraut (edited 06-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kraut: Maybe this wouldn't be a bad idea for the NO FOW option. Though i wonder why anyone would want to play a game like this. It's really no fun to know what the enemy has and what his capabilities are. If you play this way, you're not testing your tactical genius, but rather your mathematical skills (whatis it, about 4th grade arithmatic?). And i thought we all want to be little rommels ... MK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thank you Kraut. Exactly my point. Why would you want to know all that **** anyway? And if you want to count craters, you've got WAAYYY to much time on your hands anyway. ------------------ "I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon_S Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Actually, crater analysis is a real, and worthwhile, battlefield activity for FOs. Looking at the size and orientation gives you an idea about what is firing, and from where. Looking at the quantity gives you an idea of their capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: Thank you Kraut. Exactly my point. Why would you want to know all that **** anyway? And if you want to count craters, you've got WAAYYY to much time on your hands anyway. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It has come to my attention that i did not fully understand the original post because i didn't read it properly. When you are battling in CM and browsing the forum at the same time this tends to happen ... bah ... I think what John is saying is that he wants a more detailed summary screen and not the info at the beginning of the battle. MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It has come to my attention<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> mmmm...that's a very interesting euphemism for "had sense beaten into me by a round of piscatorial combat" Mr Kraut. ------------------ "Even the Brady Bunch could beat a company of French"-Carentan (slightly paraphrased) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: And if you want to count craters, you've got WAAYYY to much time on your hands anyway. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Damn, I think my irony meter just broke. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 lol Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Minimus. Jon is an artillerist. Stop being snide and start listening to him. Examining craters is a VITAL part of an FOs job. Crater examination tells you what you're facing, where it is firing from and what its ammo supply status is. All of that is vital info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One of the things not presently in CM that I'd really love to see is a detailed rundown of what the opposing side started with, the complete enemy order of battle, unless an operation is in progress. Ideally, this would be laid out in such a way that a single glance would show that,say,7 of 10 251s were lost by game's end, along with two out of five squads of infantry. As it is, I can only approximate it after the fact by painstakingly hunting around the battlefield for the markers of killed and damaged units, then adding them up. Time consuming and unsanitary! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree that this would be ok for an after action screen. I remember quite a while ago, there was a debate about having a "master list" of all the units on a summary screen. I know it was in reference to having it "in game" but don't recall if an after action summary screen was debated at the same time as well. I do remember the "in game" idea was soundly rejected. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, as the frequent recipient of deadly artillery fire I am keenly interested in the foe's available fire suppport at game start--by type, size, quantity, FO type and FO quality if known. There is no way to figure this out after the game other than by counting craters and noting their sizes. And I've learned to my sorrow how big a role fire support can play on success in battle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Isn't this possible to figure out after the game by reviewing the corpses? After all, any artillery fire, onboard or offboard, has to be fired by an on screen unit, or called in by an FO. So at end game, if you have 1 corpse of an 81mm mortar team, 2 105 FO corpses, and a couple of 60mm mortar guys baking in the sun, you know what he had available for use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler: And I've learned to my sorrow how big a role fire support can play on success in battle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dude, you ain't seen nothin' yet }>:-D Now hurry up and send me the file! P.S. you know what feature i'd love to see?....The %&^$#*@! game!!! sorry, didn't have my coffee yet ------------------ The dead know only one thing - it is better to be alive [This message has been edited by Kingfish (edited 06-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Heh heh... never fails to amase me why people bother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 John, I agree wholeheartedly about how useful a more detailed after action unit listing would be. I, too, would like to see it in sort of an OOB format, with background info. about the units' organizational identity, etc. This would make it very simple to get a better grasp of the battle that was just fought. Maximus, I hope you now understand what John was talking about. Perhaps you should wait and/or re-read a post before you go ripping someone a new one? Seems like many of us understood John's intent on the first reading. But I know what your problem is, like me, you're cranky because others have the game and you don't. ------------------ "Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you. Take it easy, Dude." -- The Stranger The Dude abides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Yep, I agree with John. A more detailed after action report would be nice for NON-operations or when the operation is over. Put it down on the 'nice to have' and won't hurt anything list IMO. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 I understand the John's post at first reading (maybe because I'm not english speaker and usually do a lot of misspelling ), but I disagree. I think the way the FOW is implemented simulates exactly the Intel the tactical unit CO have at end of battle. The type and composition of the force facing him only could be guesstimated through a high level Intel unit... That is, seeing what happens at the light of player's knowlodgement... Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon_S: Maxipad - you dumb redneck! He's talking about AFTER the battle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL Ain't that the most tactful opening I've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetch Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Guys, don't forget that operations link several individual battles together. Having this kind of information handed to you after ONE of those battles would ruin the ongoing FOW for the rest of an operation. Much better (and more accurate) to have to spend five minutes looking over the carnage and putting together your estimate of what your opponent still has left for the next go. Vetch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 ok this is not exactly in keeping with content of the rest of this thread but it is a "feature" I would like to see a patch for. In the Gold Demo in VoT if a Concrete bunker is KO'd or abandoned, there is still the same graphic on the map but that graphic representation does not block LOS or offer any units (friendly or enemy) any cover or or any LOS adavantage at all. Has anyone else noticed this. Just try haveing a fire fight around a KO'd bunker and watch the LOF and LOS and bullets fly right through it? If these bunkers are KO'd they could turn into rubble and offer the same kind of cover as rubble in collapsed houses. But in the Gold Demo the crew just takes off out the back of the bunker then the game engine treats the bunker as if it does not exist. I think it could be at least rubble at least like a square unit block of wall. Again this is only a very minor nitpicky issue and I feel like I don't want to be too picky/critical (?word loss?) by raising it, but I think it could go on "The List" (way down at the bottom though) -tom w ------------------ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Have you thanked BTS by buying your SECOND copy of CM yet?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 06-22-2000).] [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 06-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Tom, bunkers cannot be reduced to rubble, because they are not treated like buildings. The game treats them as if they are armor. That's why LOS/LOF isn't affected by them. There's been a lot of discussion about (1) why LOS/LOF isn't affected by armor and (2) why bunkers are treated like armor. The relevant threads can be found through a search, I suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon_S: Maxipad - you dumb redneck! He's talking about AFTER the battle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Voted 'Post of the Day' by somebody else. I agree with John and Scott - would be nice to have, only at the end of a battle or operation, and not critical at all. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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