High cost of CM for non-US residents

[Maximus]

Oh this is a totally stupid thread.

First of all, the cheapest new game on the shelf in the States is about $40. With the most expensive being $60. So with CM being $45 + S&H is pretty damn reasonable to me.

So if you're complaining about the low value of your currency. It's not our fault. Maybe its saying something about world economies: Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism. One thing I notice about Socialist economies is that their governments gives away money for weird reasons. When this occurs, it tends to drive the value of their currency down. When people have to earn their money, it tends to make the currency strong.

------------------

All that sleeps, awakens...

All that awakens, hungers...

All that hungers, feeds...

[Guest barrold713]

Nearly endless replayability, the game runs great right out of the package, a useful and complete manual that doesn't need a $15 (US) "strategy guide" to fill in crucial details, excellent support, responsive developers who listen to their customers, a group of talented people continually adding value and variety to the gaming experience, and a combination of realism and pure game tension and excitement...heck I might send BTS another 20 bucks in gratitude.

Compared with the mountain of crud I have been suckered into buying and being disappointed by, this is gamer's heaven.

I can hardly wait to buy CM2!!!

------------------

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote"

- Ben Franklin

[Guest KwazyDog]

"Just because you can make a crap load out of it, doesn’t make it right."

Dog, one point I think your missing is that although Battlefront do make more dollars per sale becuase they arent going through a publisher, they arent making the number of sales they would if the DID go through a publisher, a very important point.

Persoanlly I was very happy when I did the figures and found that over here in Aus it came out as pretty much the same as a game off the shelf. Of course it would have been nice if it was cheaper...hell, it would be even better for free but of course that wasnt going to happen Personally, I was suprised and happy enough at the price to preorder the game in April last year.

Sure you loose the box but you gain a great game in a genre that was pretty much history before CM came along.

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DOG:

What sells for $60 US. That would make it about $110 Aus dollars, nothing in Aus costs that much (game software), maybe you guys are getting ripped off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most games start out in the range of $39.99 to $59.99. Considering Play Station or Dream Cast cost even MORE I think PC games are rather fair in price.

Also, CM is not being sold on the mass-market so that is going to force the price up just a tad because volume will likely not be as high.

If I get a new game for $39.99, I think it's a great deal. $45 seem OK, and in this case, well worth it. The last few games I bought:

Diablo II $59.99

Comabat Mission $45

Madden 2001 $39.99

Sammy Sosa High Heat Baseball 2001 $39.99

In terms of U.S. PC game costs, CM is at worse, slightly above average.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

“If, in fact, they are charging too much, then the market will let them know”

Take your point, I presume the market will let them know by pirateing their games.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please... that's like saying car theft just shows that cars are too expensive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

As a marketer, would you prefer to ship 20000 units at $30 or 10000 at $45 and have the differnce get pirated copies.

This is in no way condoning piracy, but after spending thousands of bucks on crap software, Iam getting a bit jaded over paying high prices for games.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With demos today, sounds more like poor choice than a game maker's fault. Also, one can shop at a place that allows returns. I do when I suspect a game in anyway. It generally costs $10 more in these shops but on some games it is insurance.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Before receiving a follow up artillery bombardment from you all, CM is a great game. Pretty close to, if not the, best wargame ever. But as a game it is not the best computer game ever written (IMHO), but the amount we pay would suggest it is the best game you will ever play.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to compare CM's price in context. Costs that are inflated by shipping costs, taxes or currency conversion is not BTS fault. BTS needs to have profits in U.S. dollars and not a lesser equivelent of a foreign currency.

The U.S. dollar happens to strong at this time. Just the way the woorld turns.

Cav

[This message has been edited by CavScout (edited 09-14-2000).]

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DOG:

I am not a smart arse, but if a box and all the trimmings aren’t that expensive, why not include them. It would save me from loosing the bloody CD and manual every time my wife cleans up near the computer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about you but my game boxes go to storage. I keep only the CD and case and the manuals near the computer.

Besides, the box is really aimed at marketting on the retail shelf. In a store you need a fancy box to grab attention and stand-out among the 100s of other games.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Just because you can make a crap load out of it, doesn’t make it right. OPEC seems to have the same mentality at the moment, and they are not the most popular of folk right now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OPEC is getting a bum rap, IMO. Everything I read says they are close to their max production. Hell, the cost of gas/petro in most countries is because of taxes and not the cost of a barrel. The US and UK buy oil at the same price BUT it is cheaper at the pump in the US only because taxes are low.

Cav

[BFCElvis]

Am I the only one that throws away my game boxes?

(Cav, I got Madden2001 as a birthday gift last week. Drop me an email if you want to do a TCP/IP game sometime.)

------------------

"To conquer death you only have to die" JC

[Alan Loke]

Hi everybody! I just want to chip in my 2 sen worth. I'm from Malaysia, and CM cost me slightly more than Malaysian Dollar 200! Now, sadly, in Asia, pirated games are so plentiful, and they sell for about USD1.50 each (!) A lot of my friends laughed when I told them I ordered CM, when I could just go to the local shop and get it for USD1.50, but I was really impressed with CM from the demo, and all the great accolades it was geting. So, yes, even though it was really expensive, I still feel that it was well spent (though I'm broke for the rest of the month now )

AS a side note, because CM is only sold directly through the net, the pirated copy of CM is quite scarce. I've only noticed a few places that have them, whereas for any other new game, within a week of its release in US store shelves, pirated CDs would have flooded the market. So, looks like BTS has actually gotten the pirates licked this time...

Regards

Alan

[Guest Big Time Software]

Touchy subject? Well, if you weren't out to make us look bad (and you are) I wouldn't care. But your facts and perceptions are warped. Gotta make sure people know that

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I am not a smart arse, but if a box and all the trimmings aren’t that expensive, why not include them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The main purpose of a box is to catch your eye in the store. Nothing more, nothing less. If you choose to store your game in its original box, know that is not what the publishers intended it to be used for.

And I never said the trimmings weren't that expensive! I said that the big publishers get a huge price break making their "trimmings" PLUS their games cheaper than our games without the "trimmings". PLEASE read my posts more carefully.

And if we were to ship out the game in a Box, instead of an Envelope, domestic US shipping would go up slightly due to greater packaging materials, but international orders would go up by a LOT. Also, our warehousing charges would be increased by about 10 fold (boxes take up a crap load of room), we would have to pay more for assembly, have yet another thing we need to keep in stock, and of course spent about $20,000 to make a decent box.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just because you can make a crap load out of it, doesn’t make it right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So we should give it away for nothing? Not likely to see a Combat Mission 2 if we did. Again, reread my posts where I state that we sell about 20-30 times LESS product because we are selling on the Internet.

Without being mean here... you are quite clueless about this stuff Some facts:

1. Combat Mission is priced inline with the costs of other first release, top quality games in the US *AND* Australia. Some games are in fact MORE expensive.

2. Packaging costs for a big publisher are less than ours simply because they buy in bulk.

3. Boxes are evil. They are nothing but added cost and headaches. These costs, like it or not, WILL be passed onto the customer. We aren't runing a charity here so you can have a piece of cardboard with some pretty pictures on it.

4. Higher profit margins do NOT necessarily mean we make more money at the end of the day. If we had a publishing deal we would be making more and the game would STILL cost exactly the same to the consumer.

Anything that you have to say to contradict the above 4 facts should be backed up by first hand knowledge. Speculation and slights on our business model without even a hint of informed opinion is rather tiresome.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hehe... forgot to mention this one...

16 years or so ago I bought "War In Russia" from SSI, direct. It came with a 5.25 inch floppy, a dozen page manual, and an inexpensive box. The production time to make that game was measured in months, not years. Total cost in 1984 USDs... $79.95 + S&H. I figure that would be about $100 at least in today's dollars. And was it worth it? You bet

Steve

[Lutz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DOG:

I am not a smart arse, but if a box and all the trimmings aren’t that expensive, why not include them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The box itself might not cost all that much, but it will increase international shipping cost by a large amount.

To ilustrarte my point, I once ordered a flight simulator from an independent programmer/publisher from the US (I live in Germany btw). The CD and the (rather crappy) manual were in an insanely large box. Shipping alone cost me US$ 30 !

If that guy had used the same packaging as the guys from BTS it would have probably cost about US$ 10. So I payed US$ 20 for a cardboard box. I really felt ripped of.

Considering the hole point of this thread, I doubt that you would like to spend that kind of money for a box .

------------------

Lutz

Senior Junior Member

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hehe, that takes me back to the good old days when the S in SSI really did stand for strategic Steve.

I remember we purchased many games from them in those days. Panzer Strike, Nam, War in Russia, Pacific War, Overrun, Kampfgrupe (ermm, however you spell it), Computer Ambush...just to name a few. Damn, wargamers really were spoilt in those days, hehe.

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 09-14-2000).]

[Knaust]

hehe..Hundminen is right...I got CM..then I got no more games...and i will get no games other than CM series!

So I spared and i will spare a lot of money...but there is also the wrong side of the coin!

Now I play CM...ok...but I live for CM!

[Phoenix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DOG:

True, the game is a masterpiece, but it still is expensive. When I got my copy 3 months ago, it cost me over $90 Australian.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How much over?

$90 AUD is $50 USD. 100 AUD is $55 USD.

In the US we paid $45. Current exchange rates are what they are. Should BTS change the prices for each country?

Life isn't fair all the time is it? You paid $10 USD more than I did for the same game. Is that really so horrendous?

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 09-14-2000).]

[Hunter]

I wonder if the fact that the Aus$ is so low compared to the $US is related to the fact that an Australian would post such a clueless (sorry mate whinge?

Is it the lack of basic education in economics and business (or even Capitalism 101) that leads us to have lower levels of innovation and business achievement, which leads in turn to the lower currency value?

And what do we do about it? Innovate, generate wealth, provide value to others? No, we whinge and wonder why the world does it to us! Mate you could be an aussie Prime Minister

As was mentioned at the World Economic Forum in Melbourne the other day "Australia has a plan for low tech production and high tech consumption". Super.

/Rant mode off/

Bruce

ps: I pre-apologise for being offensive on this one occasion.

[Holdit]

Another point to bear in mind is that if CM had been published by the usual route, you might save some money on the shipping, you would get the box and packaging, but what you wouldn't have got would Combat Mission as we know it. Everything else is just tinsel. And GriffinCheng was right about saving money. I was going to buy all the CC games. No need now. I won't be buying the Squad Leader game either, and I haven't been in a games shop for weeks - what's the point? They won't have anything CM related. I reckon buying CM has saved me at least IR£120.

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

3. Boxes are evil.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear hear!

I've got no problems doing without a box.

I store the CD in the computers CD tray, since there's nothing else worth putting there instead, and the manual, well, I've read it already so I don't bother much about it. This forum is far more useful than the manual, and that's without me asking questions that can be answered through the manual.

The least necessary part of the manual is the tutorial, since it doesn't add anything you don't already know by playing the demo prior to purchasing the game (as suggested by BTS).

Oh, and CM is the first game I buy at full upper range prize. Otherwise I wait until games come out in low prize edition about two years after initial release.

As for the cost of CM compared to other new games; Here in Sweden a new game cost typically 350 to 500 SKr in the store, with average at above 450. CM is about (currently slightly above) 500 SKr at it's $55, so it's not that far off. Considering amusement value only, that's a bargain for CM.

Cheers

Olle

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DOG:

Just because you can make a crap load out of it, doesn’t make it right. OPEC seems to have the same mentality at the moment, and they are not the most popular of folk right now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ignoring the rather weak attempt to equate BTS with OPEC, your logic is really, astoundingly flawed.

Here in the US, where BTS lives and works, we have this concept we like to call "capitalism". Basically, it means that the fact that BTS is making some amount of money does, in fact, make it "right". See, making money is exactly what the entire point of business ventures are.

I thought Australia had a similar economic system, but I guess not...

I am not one to burden Steve and Charles with praise. Personally, I think all the praise they need and deserve comes from the total in their bank account. However, I definitely appreciate the fact that in our economic system, great risk is rewarded by great return.

These guys worked for FREE for 3 years making a game that for all they knew would never return the money and time invested in it. I do not think you appreciate the amount of risk that involves to their personal financial well being.

They should have precisely and exactly one goal when setting their price. Maximization of total revenue, and hence, maximization of total profit for themselves. Anything else would be immoral, not to mention stupid.

Jeff Heidman

[ParaBellum]

I am a German and paid 55 $ for the game, including transport. That´s 125 DM according to todays exchange rate. A normal price for a new game in Germany is 70-90 DM.

But as mentioned above, the main problem is the strong dollar, or the weak euro. By the way, I´m going to California for three weeks, aaargh! A long planned trip, so I just try not to think about DM/Dollar exchange rates... Some things are just worth spending your money.

[jshandorf]

I geuss one thing to consider is that the higher the price the better the chance for the "Well, I don't know.... Seems kinda high..." drone before purchase, which may inevitably prevent them from purchasing it.

The only way to overcome this is to generate more hype about how great this game is and to get more exposure. People will then be more accepting of a higher price since they "know" they are getting a great game.

Just look at Diablo II. It was SOOOO hyped they could have charged the $60 AND a quart of blood and kids would have STILL lined up.

Jeff

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Here in the US, where BTS lives and works, we have this concept we like to call "capitalism". Basically, it means that the fact that BTS is making some amount of money does, in fact, make it "right". See, making money is exactly what the entire point of business ventures are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Muhaha! You are mistaken! We European comrades live in a glorious socialist international community! We pay twice or three times as much for fuel, but we don't mind! The capitalists are in envy of our 50% GDP tax rates and communist-style health systems! Our governments pay us money not to work and so we can watch Jerry Springer all day long!

Forward Comrades!!

(This message was meant to be sarcastic, and is by a European).

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

Our governments pay us money not to work and so we can watch Jerry Springer all day long!

B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So that's who is watching him!

I was wondering about that...

Does the governemnt buy you CM and computers to play it on?

Jeff Heidman

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Does the governemnt buy you CM and computers to play it on?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes!! Under the Commission for Official Movement of Materials to Initiate Equality, I received a brand new G4 Cube and a gold plated copy of Combat Mission.

My wealthy neighbours look at me in envy, even though food dribbles from my chin.

------------------

[This message has been edited by an international conspiracy of Euro-Anarchists.]

[Maximus]

So really what we have here is just a bitch about exchange rates.

Well, TOUGH ****-SKIES. That's just the way the world works, or doesn't work...whatever ever way you wanna look at it. Please refer to my post at the top of the page.

[Arbie]

Interesting topic - and thanks to BTS for weighing in. The developer's take is always extremely interesting.

I personally think that CM _is_ the best wargame ever, the best sim ever, and maybe the best game ever (not that I don't love Unreal Tournament too... another masterpiece). So BTS is right - at the price, CM is cheap.

But you may be wrong about one thing... you CAN sell at a lower price in poorer countries. For example in Russia, where piracy is rampant. I saw CM for $5 at many shops in the center of Moscow. The way other software houses (e.g. Disney) APPEAR to accomodate this is to go in league with a local publisher there who churns out the disks (sans manual) at a price low enough to drive the pirates out. Often these places convert the speech and most menus to Russian for added appeal there. See www.fargus.com.

I'm not saying that BTS would want to do this, should have to do this, or would even profit significantly - but it does address the realities of the situation and permits far more people to legally enjoy what you've created, with some return to you.

BTW, salaries there ARE low (though there's a wide spread). I spoke with a full colonel in the Russian Army whose pay (when he gets it) is $20/mo. Of course that means that he spends every possible moment away from his job, doing something else. Imagine the effect on their combat readiness.

Arbie

[Richard]

Interesting thread...

I can vouch for Steve's points here.

A) Piraters will put ANYTHING up the first date they can snag it no matter what it costs. We had piraters snag our 14.95 and 19.95 add-on packs which cost next to nothing. Heck and BCT only costs 22.95 and it was pirated as well. It's a status symbol to them to get it out there first. The arguments that people pirate because software is so expensive aree ridiculous. I used to do some hacking (not pirating, but breaking into computers ) back in college so I ran with some of the warez crowd back then. You could give it away for free and they would crack it..

The cost BTS is giving you for such a large game manual is a great value. Being involved in such decisions myself I know very well how much that manual probably costs per unit plus the added shipping it may add based on what shipping method they choose. A box is a silly add-on that would DRAMATICALLY increase shipping costs due to a change in the packaging required to shipping as well as weight. As Steve pointed out Boxes are for ONE purpose and that is to catch folks eye's in stores, they serve no other real purpose...

It's sad that not all countries have the same standard of living as the U.S. but that doesn't change the real problems an independent game company runs into trying to produce a game. Simply put if they don't charge what they do they go out of business and there is no more BTS.

------------------