Combat Mission needs...

[billcarey]

Note: Argument Against Real-Time Follows.

Real Time essentially means a one to one correspondence between the time used for giving orders and the time used in seeing them executed. You have one minute to give orders for a minute. If any advocade of real time wants to play against me taking 60 seconds for each of his orders phases, send me an e-mail. Tactics? Strategy? Cohesion? Forethought? Planning even? If you can bring all of that to bear at the rate of 60s per turn, play some other game! I take usually about 15 - 30 min for setup alone.

- Bill

[Guest Big Time Software]

Dang!!! I see I forgot to turn Rant Mode off, and nobody else has the BBS permissions necessary to do so. Easily corrected...

RANT MODE OFF

Just to address the points above...

1. I want to stress yet again there is *nothing* wrong with saying that our smoke graphics don't do it for you. It is through rational discourse that CM will be constantly improved over time (just as it has been improved before release from this BBS). Personally, Charles and I would like to do better, so we actually agree. The problem comes in when people EXPECT, and even DEMAND, that we make the smoke graphics better NOW. Such opinions are not only unhelpful, but they smack of whiny, spoiled brat, and/or immature personalities. Therefore we ignore such comments except when they annoy us The simple reason why is that the "rational" part of the discourse is lacking when we are being told what to do by people that don't have more than an end user clue what they are talking about.

2. Los' long post shows EXACTLY why most gamers would make terrible game designers (at least for their first effort). It is easy as Hell for me to boot up Quake and say, "if they can do it, so can CM". But one could easily look at it the other way. Boot up CM and say, "Quake could easily support outdoor environments with unlimited vantage point viewing". But you know what Romero would tell you if you said that too him? "What are you, nuts?!? We can't possibly do that!!"

So people that say x can do it so y can as well only have a starting point for discussion. In other words, PE was able to do smoke "better" than CM, so CM could in theory do the same thing. But for all the reasons Los listed off, plus the fact that our time is LIMITED (i.e. if we do better smoke we might not do full length movies), nobody should EXPECT us to do it.

As I said, give us time and hardware advancements and we will enhance CM's graphical treatment of the world.

3. As far as RealTime goes, I can tell you for 100% absolute certainty that the next SEVEN games that BTS is planning on producing will be the same WeGo system that CM employs. We might find ways of tweaking and enhancing it, but we will NOT be going to RealTime. Sorry, but RT does not work for the type of game we are making here. Trying to put a size 5 shoe on a size 9 foot doesn't work no matter how much you like the look of the shoe. It isn't because we hate RT (in fact I have said I really love it), but because it simply WON'T work for CM and future planned products. And no, there is no way we will discuss things we might do after CM That is still several years off and things could change well before then.

4. And as for folks like Pirate that download, play, and don't like CM's Demo... no problem. Just figure that it wasn't intended for you and therefore no hard feelings. I mean, I am sure that the Barbie game that came out a couple of years was really good for its target audience, but I wouldn't play it unless there was a gun to my head Different strokes for different folks!

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-26-2000).]

[Guest phoenix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As far as RealTime goes, I can tell you for 100% absolute certainty that the next SEVEN games that BTS is planning on producing will be the same WeGo system that CM employs.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Moron Mode on

Does this mean no RTS in the future Steve?

Moron Mode off

[This message has been edited by phoenix (edited 01-26-2000).]

[Cyrano]

Man oh man...

I've been lurking on this board for the better part of a month now (I downloaded the CM demo two weeks ago and am convinced that it is the only known cure for the addiction that can be EverQuest) but this particular thread motivated me to write. It's been well-nigh two decades now since I melted (I am not giving in to hyperbole, my father still tells this story to friends) my c64 playing SSI's Computer Ambush. I knew Denny Dumke like my brother and would yell at the TV (I had it hooked up to the livingroom console) whenever the Dirty Gerries brought down the hurting on my boys. I have waited for all the years since for a game that came CLOSE to offering what AMBUSH did. X-Com was nice (although I still don't like the layered-terrain thing); Jagged Alliance had its charm; and Soldiers At War as...well...a game of sorts; but it's largely been a long, dry season. This is why it drives me completely BUGGY that there are people around here worried about something as mundane as SMOKE EFFECTS. Who cares if BTS is telling a baldfaced lie (I really don't think so guys...honest) when it claims it can't create "realistic" smoke (whatever that is)...who cares if they've got cute little powderpuff-white sprites in the middle of the battlefield with "I am a smoke barrage" tattooed on their pixely little backsides...dear Lord! All right...I know...most everybody here DOES appreciate BTS and many people have offered what I thought were insightful, worthwhile comments, many of which I agreed with. I cannot, however, bear A) those who ignore forests those who would FOR ONE INSTANT pull BTS away from their hovels where they should be finishing CM to answer odd questions.

As for RTS...c'mon fellas, you got DuneIIC&CRedAlertDarkReignAgeofEmpiresStarCraftWarcraft, etc., etc., etc. Your instincts are already serving to tear down the best parts of Talonsoft. This one is for me and mine. This one is for Denny.

So there.

Yours 'til the 88 finds me,

Jim

[Compassion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Boot up CM and say, "Quake could easily support outdoor environments with unlimited vantage point viewing". But you know what Romero would tell you if you said that too him? "What are you, nuts?!? We can't possibly do that!!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Naw... Romero would just say that you're his bitch and that his game will come out sometime by 2010....

[killmore]

I wonder why you guys blame me for starting the topic? I did not! I just added my 2 cents. And for some reason these 2 cents really hurt a lot of people. I really don't see why some people got so defensive. I am not asking you to shut up - am I? So why are you being rude?

This is discussion - remember that. You also seem to think I have DEMANDS. I don't. I am not asking for BTS to redo anything.

But it is worth noting that there is a lot of interest about RT.

"Realize that, in CM, you are filling the following positions (for a largish battle) - 1. Battalion commander. 2. ~3 Company commanders. 3. Platoon/team level commanders, say about 6 of them active at any given time."

Basically a lot of people seem to want to see everything, be everywhere and be every commander on the field. And even better if they could be every soldier. Thats natural if you are moving from table-top games and like that style of play. Nothing wrong with that.

I dislike micromanaging everything - thats my personal preference. I agree that AI is not good enough to do micromanagement. But you know what? CM's AI is quite reasonable!

In reply to:

"Does this mean that making a future version of CM an RTS would require giving up everything Steve and Charles have been trying to do, and everything most of us are here for? YES."

NO! I disagree. You take this personally don't you? There is no reason to abandom turn based CM if some people want to play Realtime. Both modes are possible and I am NOT demanding anything. (See X-com apocalipse). Have you read my previous post? I said "OPTION" !

I can see BTS not wanting to provide the RT option. That would require code changes. But why would you not want me to play RT against AI? Keep your/my options open.

And setup should not be RT!

Besides that I think taxes should be lowered.

[Wehrmacht]

Sorry BTS and Steve & Charles

RANT MODE BACK ON, but a good point in defense of BTS

Back to the Real Time question.

Have any of you ever played Warzone 2100? (The first RT 3D game I've seen.) All this game amounted to was to amass a huge force of heavy tanks and to go around the map in a clockwise or counter-clockwise circle and obliterate the enemy bases. What's the fun in that. Just click away on targets and there ya go!

In a order/resolution phased game you have the ability to set up carefully layed-out plans or ambushes and such where it is most advantageous to have a "paused" state.

Just think of it as, how does it go, hours and hours of shear boredom, followed by mear seconds of shear terror.

Think of CM's orders phase to those waiting periods and the execution phase as those moments of terror.

Besides as some battles may go, you may only need to command a flank of troops while the other flank just sits there guarding something.

I mean what is the issue about RT? Is it the lack of control over your units for those 60 seconds? If so, that issue was addressed in the FAQ on the Combat Mission page. To me, that aspect recreates the true Fog of War of what happens in combat. "No plan survives contact with the enemy." That's what I like about CM's AI in that it improvises your orders in order to survive. Wouldn't you want your Tiger that is ordered to fire at an infantry group to swith targets to an M18 Hellcat that pops up in its LOS?

The old V for Victory series opperated the same way. Orders phase and execution phase. Just because this 3D wargame is well beyond the 2D Hex grid 'chit' games doesn't mean it has to be Realtime.

I think the problem is that today's gamers are spoiled on RT and FPS games that they have forgotten/lack the attention span it takes to succesfully play a "turn-based" game and love it.

However, I still like RT games, 'cause I'm probably going to get Star Trek: New Worlds.

But like mention in a previous message, it's hard to think and click quick enough to play those sort of games.

------------------

Wars are not won by dying for your country; Wars are won by making the other poor bastard die for his country.--George S. Patton

[Guest phoenix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I can see BTS not wanting to provide the RT option. That would require code changes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Code changes??????? You think that's why BTS doesn't want to provide the RT "option". Actually I think it's safe to say that they didn't do CM1 that way (or future versions) because it's not how they want THEIR game to work!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But why would you not want me to play RT against AI? Keep your/my options open.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you personalize this? It's not about *your* (or my) ability to play RT. It's about a some guys who have a concept of how the game they are making will function. RTS is NOT part of that vision for CM. Never will be from what Steve says too.

Personally I can't stand RTS games. They invariably become click fests. Drives me freakin nuts. If CM was RTS right now, I would never play it. Just my .02

[Richard III]

How come no one's commented on the most important fact mentioned in this whole thread? BTS is planning seven SEVEN games in the CM series!!!!!!!!

Bye bye free time...

[Doug Beman]

Coming soon (perhaps before I'm 30) a movie from BTS, starring:

West Front late war (you'll try to change history)

East Front (you'll cringe at the brutality of the fighting!)

Mediterranean (you'll laugh at the Italian tanks!)

West Front early war (can YOU turn the counterattack at Arras into something that changes the war?)

And three others whose names and blurbs I have forgotten!!

In...

THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN

{really awesome showdown-type music plays}

DjB

[Wehrmacht]

GEEZ!! I've created a monster of a thread here!

Yes, I am too anxiously awaiting the additional theaters. Can't wait to slug it out with BT-7s, T-28s, T-34s and such. **STEVE**, are you all planning a '39 Poland, '40 France, and maybe a Sea Lion theater package in one of your later installments? Also I'd like to see in the East front installment, other nationalities like Rumania, Poland, Hungary, '39 Finnish/Russian conflict. (Basically what Talonsoft had in East Front II.)

------------------

Wars are not won by dying for your country; Wars are won by making the other poor bastard die for his country.--George S. Patton

[Guest Lokesa]

I just want a graveyard terrain tile so we do the old cross of iron maps justice

[Los]

Since we're dreaming, some day I want to look down and see...

The whole map of Tarawa in front of me as my amtracks cross the line of departure!

Los

[Guest Big Time Software]

Killmore, sorry, this isn't about you personally. The only bit that is was were I expressed frustration that you keep mentioning having CM be RT (even if in the future) while ignoring the huge reasons why this will not work.

You then just said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There is no reason to abandom turn based CM if some people want to play Realtime. Both modes are possible and I am NOT demanding anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, please read my comments about gamers not knowing much about game design or development. This comment is exactly what I am talking about.

Even *IF* we thought RT was for some reason desirable (and we absolutely do NOT think that) you have no idea how hard it would be to implement. This is the bit that I find frustrating every time you or someone else brings up RT. We can not change a few lines of code and have RT simulation. Instead, we would have to rewrite the ENTIRE GAME ENGINE from the ground up. So... about 2 years worth of work. I am *not* kidding. Of course we could do some sort of half assed, wattered down, peice of crap in 1 year.

So again, I ask you and any other RT advocate to do a search and read all that we have said on the matter. And also read all we have said about having the AI control your units. We aren't going to do either of these for both practical and game play reasons. The info is all here on the BBS for you to read, so if you are really curious why I keep saying it isn't possible (not to mention desirable), use SEARCH.

And don't feel bad about being so uninformed about how difficult it is to do RT. Ken Williams, the guy who founded Sierra OnLine, thought a week or twos worth of work would make Civil War Generals 2 a RealTime game. Not only that, but that the game would be so much better because of it. I can't even tell you how far down my jaw was when he proposed that. Thankfully, none of the other 20 people in the room thought he was correct and he backed down. Then when RT games were proven to be "just another type of game" instead of the be-all-end-all that all games should become, he actively endorsed the turn based play and had marketing make a big deal out of it. I know, 'cause little 'ol me was sitting up in front of him defending CWG2 from what could have been a disasterous, and illinformed, decision for the game.

OK, didn't mean to rant again, but I guess I did I can not emphasize enough that gamers in general don't have a clue what they are talking about when it comes to core game design and/or development. This is not a slam, but a statement of fact. I watch court room shows and legal documentaries all the time, but I wouldn't for one second think that I had the skills or knowledge necessary to go to court and defend/producute/judge a case. Far too many gamers think that they do.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-27-2000).]

[Reverendo]

I have to say I love CM as it is right now. And since I have pre-ordered, smoke graphics aren't going to change my mind.

But it is true that the current smoke graphics in CM are plainly ugly. Even drawing the 2D sprites again would improve the effect. But there's something I'm yet to understand about 'horsepower':

Do you guys remember Chuck Yeager's air combat? Explosions in CYAC could be rendered in two ways. 3D (which took after CombatMission's) and 2D bitmap. You just had to choose.

Every single 3D Action shooter can be set for different detail levels, and in most of them you can disable big things like 3D explosions, translucent smoke, particles, raytracing lighting, etc. If you disable all that, the game looks awful, but it can be played in slower machines. I saw no 'video' section in CM Demo's option menu...

Why don't you just make it an option? This way, guys with super PCs or Macs can enjoy eye-candy graphics while other guys can play with the game as it is right now. Hey, you can even remove trees and AFVs... Why not smoke? Or perhaps three ways of drawing it (Translucent smoke/2D Bitmap smoke/No smoke)? Most of the demands for better graphics could be answered with 'detail levels'.

------------------

Regards

Reverendo

[guachi]

I don't know why people want translucent smoke. If you could see through it, it wouldn't be much of a smokescreen, would it?

I thought smokescreens were supposed to be dense and thick. If it was transluscent it might end up looking just like the fog does.

The only reason I think the smoke looks odd is that it is 2D smoke in an otherwise 3D game.

Jason

[coe]

I played "Last Defense" again last evening.

I really suggest a "follow" command, which

will help with vehicles keeping in formation

or from needlessly bunching up. (after all

weren't the drivers trained to do that?)

otherwise it is difficult since as you are

planning one vehicles movements, you can't

see the way-points of the others.

[Scott C]

Actually, Coe, you can see the other vehicles' waypoints. There's an option to "show all movement paths." Sorry I don't remember the keystroke (don't need to since I never turn it off), but it's on the hotkeys screen. This will solve some of the problem. However, I would agree that a follow command would be nice. For CM2, though - it isn't worth delaying CM1 for, IMO.

------------------

Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories?

[Neutral Party]

Follow that guy till he gets brewed up then em.. err... PANIC .. run away, run away.

Joe

[Guest Big Time Software]

Reverendo, as far as what you are talking about, there *are* some things we could do now. And who knows, perhaps we *might* squeeze one or more in before too long (probably not 1.0 though). But even the practical things take one thing that we don't have hardly any room to play around with:

TIME

Options don't come into being by just pure desire alone. These things take time to program and, if necessary, create artwork for. So, it might take us a day, might take several. We don't know. Could also take several days and look like utter crap, and so the time is wasted.

Point here is that there are LOTS of things that we could tweak, but each takes x time. It doesn't take more than a few of these to start delaying the game by weeks. In fact, if we put in the rest of The List (all features that we would like to get in) you probably wouldn't be seeing CM for another six months.

At some point we HAVE to say "good enough" or the game will NEVER ship. Simple as that.

As for why I harp on hardware requirements, many of the best ways to do smoke hit the hardware hard, either CPU, framerate, VRAM, or some combo. Remember what I said about looking at one game and trying to say the same thing can be done on another. CYAC might have come out 5 years ago, but it was an entirely different beast. Oddly enough, there are some things that such old games can do better than today's 3D hardware. You might be scrtatching your heads on that one, but there was more freedom to do some things without 3D hardware.

But again, TIME is probably the biggest limiting factor as it affects EVERYTHING that we do.

Steve

[Thomm]

Only six months for all the things on <font size=+3>The List</font> ?!

This can only be The List for Combat Mission I

Does The List for the other CM games already exist ?

surprised and confused,

Thomm

[Wehrmacht]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

At some point we HAVE to say "good enough" or the game will NEVER ship. Simple as that.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Steve is right here. Let us let BTS finish up the game with what they got and then if we still want tweaks to some things, then WAIT FOR A PATCH!!

I mean it's like you guys never downloaded a patch before!!

One thing I did see as far as the AI goes is in vehicle movement. I was playing Reisberg as the Americans and I was trying to snake my tanks thru the woods, which clearly had enough clear space between the 'woods' tiles and they wouldn't go thru them. I hope that this has been fixed in the release version. Judge by screen shots around the web, looks like it has, but just wanna mention that.

Also is there going to be a click and drag selection box for unit so that you don't have to select each and every individual bazooka, MG, HQ, etc. Basically do it by command and control. Say like select a HQ and every unit attched will "follow" just like one of the previous posts said.

[Major Tom]

The only thing CM needs, is to be released.

[Guest phoenix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also is there going to be a click and drag selection box for unit....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

combathq.thegamers.net/newfeatures/Group_move/groupmove.htm

[This message has been edited by phoenix (edited 01-27-2000).]

[Wehrmacht]

Originally posted by phoenix:

Yes.

combathq.thegamers.net/newfeatures/Group_move/groupmove.htm

Thanx phoenix..