CM WW2 - Fighting the Übertanks

[PEB14]

The title is deliberately provocative but don't worry, the post is not!

I found enough motivation this weekend to proceed with my Scottish Corridor campaign. In the present scenario my Churchill tanks are defending against Panther. It looks like I'm getting better with the game as, for once, I wasn't thrashed by the German Übertanks! On the other hand, it's only the AI...

We all know that Panther tanks were superior to their Allied counterparts, at least from a purely tactical point of view. How far superor is a matter of debate. Combat Mission games deliver their own interpretation.

There is one factor in particular that I find repeatedly surprising: what I would call survivability of the German tanks. What I'm talking about is the ability of a tank to survive PENETRATION hits. And from my experience it appears that the German tanks in Combat Mission are far superior to their Allied counterparts.

Yesterday, I needed at least 5 penetration hits to knock down two Panthers (more than 10 in total), and only two for a third one. Hits were a combination of 57 mm AP and APDS, 94 mm HE, 75 mm AP shells and PIAT charges.

This is not exceptional from my experience. Even Panzer IV and StuG can withstand an incredible amount of penetration hits before being knocked out. I still remember my CMFI training campaign, in which a Pz IV survived at least 4 penetrating 75 mm shells before being knocked out. I recently fought StuGs in CMBN and CMFI, and I never was able to knock them out with less than 3 penetration hits (all 75 or 76 mm).

On the other hand, I've never seen any Allied tank survive more than one penetrating 75 mm calibre shell... Neither Shermans, nor T-34, nor JS-2, nor Churchills (and let's not speak about the infamous Cromwells...). In the Allied case, I would rate at a little mor than 50% the chance to be knocked down by the first 75 mm penetration hit (more for Cromwells).

To be fair, this is not really an issue. All tanks I mentioned above were out of combat before being destroyed (either abandoned by their stunned crew or unable to fire their armament or with so many kiled or wounded crewmen that they were only able to move). But I'm wondering about the rationale behind this incredible discrepancy between the German Übertanks and the Allied ones ?!

[Brille]

Well you clearly made other experiences than I did. 

I find most german tanks pretty fragile or at least as fragile as other tanks are. 

Usually they get knocked out after a clean penetration from a 75mm (or higher) round. Those 57mm rounds are another story. They more often than not need a few shots to finish a tank because they are lower in diameter (obviously) and don't generate that much spalling inside. Plus they don't have explosive filling and so have an even worse knock out potential. (at least on the British) 

I remember that some 57mm churchill of mine took multiple shots at Panzer IV. And while they surely took damage, they could drive away for the time being. 

Stug III (or any german tank hunter in that regard) I find even less survivable after a penetration. Even if the machine itself would survive the hit it often takes out the entire crew because of their cramped positioning. 

 

The tanks I find most capable to survive one or multiple penetrations are Churchill, T34 and Tiger. 

But even then it is more of a rare occasion to me. 

[Bulletpoint]

I find it's very variable how many penetrations it takes.

Had a Tiger II taken out frontally by a 57mm AT gun. It hit the top of the turret at an extremely shallow angle, but because it hit one of the small hoisting loops, the game apparently decided the shell had hit at 90 degree angle.

But in general, probably the difference you're seeing is due to German tanks firing AP shells with explosive filler, while the British don't.

[chuckdyke]

Allied tanks are capable of mission kills and non-recoverable kills play a distant second fiddle. Churchill 6 PDR vs Jagdpanther the Jagdpanther retreated with a busted muzzle brake. The difference was the Jagdpanther was attacked by numerous units but their crew survived this reflects Imo reality. 

[PEB14]

3 hours ago, Brille said:

Well you clearly made other experiences than I did. 

I find most german tanks pretty fragile or at least as fragile as other tanks are. 

Usually they get knocked out after a clean penetration from a 75mm (or higher) round. Those 57mm rounds are another story. They more often than not need a few shots to finish a tank because they are lower in diameter (obviously) and don't generate that much spalling inside. Plus they don't have explosive filling and so have an even worse knock out potential. (at least on the British) 

I remember that some 57mm churchill of mine took multiple shots at Panzer IV. And while they surely took damage, they could drive away for the time being. 

Stug III (or any german tank hunter in that regard) I find even less survivable after a penetration. Even if the machine itself would survive the hit it often takes out the entire crew because of their cramped positioning. 

 

The tanks I find most capable to survive one or multiple penetrations are Churchill, T34 and Tiger. 

But even then it is more of a rare occasion to me. 

Interesting. I'll see how things develop over time - I clearly have not played as many games as you did so my stats are clearly not as reliable.

Up to now I haven't found many difference between Allied tank's survivability. Except for the Cromwells: in the only game I played them, they always burst into flames at first penetration. Rolling crematoriums.

[PEB14]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

But in general, probably the difference you're seeing is due to German tanks firing AP shells with explosive filler, while the British don't.

Do you mean that you also observe better survivability of the German tanks?

By the way I didn't know that. And that's a pretty good explanation of what I observed!

Edited September 11, 2023 by PEB14

[PEB14]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Allied tanks are capable of mission kills and non-recoverable kills play a distant second fiddle. Churchill 6 PDR vs Jagdpanther the Jagdpanther retreated with a busted muzzle brake. The difference was the Jagdpanther was attacked by numerous units but their crew survived this reflects Imo reality. 

That's clear. But the question here was wether there is any difference of survivability AFTER penetration, or not. My experience is the German tanks survive significantly better 75/76 mm shells penetrations. @Brille experience is that they don't.

[chuckdyke]

8 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

By the way I didn't know that. And that's a pretty good explanation of what I observed!

Yes, it is APHE while at least British tanks use solid shot. Usually after penetration often a crew member is KIA and the crew dismounts. 

[chuckdyke]

Interesting graphics. 

 

[Brille]

2 hours ago, PEB14 said:

Up to now I haven't found many difference between Allied tank's survivability. Except for the Cromwells: in the only game I played them, they always burst into flames at first penetration. Rolling crematoriums.

In one of my last CMRT battle I had multiple T34/76 which survived at least one clear penetration of 75mm (Stug III) and even 88mm (Flak). 

Cannot say that they were combat ready in any sense after that but I could put tankers in there with some sort of functionality. 

I would not say that it is the most survivable tank though. I had many instances too where a Panzerschreck or any other at weapon fired at a seemingly unimportant part of the tank and it turned "knocked out" immediately. 

 

The fireball Cromwells I cannot confirm so far. I only fielded them in like 2 battles. Some of them burned, some of them did not.

But in general I like these little fellows: low silhouette and fast. 

Not to mention their cube-shaped looks.

[PEB14]

51 minutes ago, Brille said:

The fireball Cromwells I cannot confirm so far. I only fielded them in like 2 battles. Some of them burned, some of them did not.

But in general I like these little fellows: low silhouette and fast. 

Not to mention their cube-shaped looks.

Yeah, externally they're cute; it's just one more reason to stay OUT of them instead of inside...

[A Canadian Cat]

There are a couple of things to note. First when you are shooting at an enemy tank you don't get perfect information about its condition. You only know it's knocked out when  your soldiers know it's knocked out. I know I've relayed this story before (plus the original post which I was not able to find). I had a Sherman put 7 rounds into a PzIV at close range before knocking it out. I thought it must be a bug. Turns out since this was in the woods the visibility was challenging and my tank crew just did not know they KO'ed it with the first or second shot (I cannot remember which) so they kept firing.

Then there is the issue of armour vs ammo. The ability to actually cause system damage, crew casualties and knock out a tank depends on the energy left in the shell after it has penetrated the armour. At the right distance any gun can just barely penetrate a particular tank's armour. So, its not some uber property of a Panther vs some terrible property of a Sherman. Its how the engagement falls with in the damage capabilities vs armour. What you are seeing is the long 75 on the Panther has serious energy left after penetrating allied tanks out longer than the guns of the allied tanks have against it.

[Bulletpoint]

5 hours ago, PEB14 said:

Do you mean that you also observe better survivability of the German tanks?

Yes, but only because some of them have better armour.

The only vehicle I remember having "odd" damage behaviour is the M10 tank destroyer. It seems strangely resistant to penetrating hits on the front turret, in my opinion. Never tested it out though.

Oh, and the bulletproof jeep windshields of course.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Oh, and the bulletproof jeep windshields of course.

[Artkin]

I think if youre hitting a target which youre barely able to penetrate then you will have a less chance of knocking it out with a penetrating hit. 

I have had IS-2s survive many penetrating hits from either a panzer iv or v, cant remember. I think a panzer iv. 

Anyway I have found that conscript tanks have significantly higher survivability. They can take a ton of penetrating hits before being shown as knocked out. I'm not sure why thats the case, but its always nice to recrew a panzer thats been shot up and find that most stuff still works. 

[PEB14]

3 hours ago, IanL said:

There are a couple of things to note. First when you are shooting at an enemy tank you don't get perfect information about its condition. You only know it's knocked out when  your soldiers know it's knocked out. I know I've relayed this story before (plus the original post which I was not able to find). I had a Sherman put 7 rounds into a PzIV at close range before knocking it out. I thought it must be a bug. Turns out since this was in the woods the visibility was challenging and my tank crew just did not know they KO'ed it with the first or second shot (I cannot remember which) so they kept firing.

Very interesting. Do you mean that the tank might be knocked out, but I don't know that it is?

I was naively believing that you get the "knocked out" information pretty much instantly. But what you depict makes full sense, as there is no reason a firing crew 1 km away might know wether a non burning tank is disabled or not.

Nevertheless, it wouldn't explain a difference between German and Allied tanks behaviour as fog of war is the same for both sides… Arguably, as I have played with Allied tanks a lot more than with the German ones, that indeed could explain my perceived bias. Thanks for pointing out.

 

3 hours ago, IanL said:

Then there is the issue of armour vs ammo. The ability to actually cause system damage, crew casualties and knock out a tank depends on the energy left in the shell after it has penetrated the armour. At the right distance any gun can just barely penetrate a particular tank's armour. So, its not some uber property of a Panther vs some terrible property of a Sherman. Its how the engagement falls with in the damage capabilities vs armour. What you are seeing is the long 75 on the Panther has serious energy left after penetrating allied tanks out longer than the guns of the allied tanks have against it.

Add to that the APHE of the German tanks. Sounds good to me.

[PEB14]

55 minutes ago, Artkin said:

Anyway I have found that conscript tanks have significantly higher survivability. They can take a ton of penetrating hits before being shown as knocked out.

Are you serious???

[Artkin]

Yep its strange.

[Bulletpoint]

3 hours ago, Artkin said:

Anyway I have found that conscript tanks have significantly higher survivability. They can take a ton of penetrating hits before being shown as knocked out. I'm not sure why thats the case, but its always nice to recrew a panzer thats been shot up and find that most stuff still works. 

Must say I never noticed that...

[Vacillator]

I've noticed that when playing as German, my tanks are very susceptible to be knocked out (or even likely more lose their main gun).

While playing as Allied my tanks are also very susceptible to be being knocked out (but in my experience not so likely to lose their main gun).

In a memorable PBEM of CMBN A Muddy Affair (great game) I had a Panther which lost it's main gun but was then as hard as a hard thing can be, and never succumbed to multiple further shots.  We called it the cheese Panther it had that many holes...

 

[A Canadian Cat]

5 hours ago, PEB14 said:

Nevertheless, it wouldn't explain a difference between German and Allied tanks behaviour as fog of war is the same for both sides…

Yeah, I only meant in a particular moment you don't always know the condition of an enemy tank. The overall performance difference is some of the other issues being discussed.

[Brille]

13 hours ago, Artkin said:

Anyway I have found that conscript tanks have significantly higher survivability. They can take a ton of penetrating hits before being shown as knocked out. I'm not sure why thats the case, but its always nice to recrew a panzer thats been shot up and find that most stuff still works. 

Or is it maybe just because the crew takes longer to get out of their (already destroyed) tank? 

I noticed that some crews take a long while longer exiting their vehicle after a devastating hit. 

Thought of it more of a random thing than to connect it with the experience of the crew though. 

I rarely play with conscript tank crews honestly. 

[Artkin]

Nah the tanks can be recrewed and driven off

[Warts 'n' all]

On 9/11/2023 at 7:21 AM, PEB14 said:

 (and let's not speak about the infamous Cromwell...). 

I assume you are referring to that idiot son of mine, Tumbledown Dick.

[Brille]

1 hour ago, Artkin said:

Nah the tanks can be recrewed and driven off

Is it happening more with specific tanks or just tanks with conscript crews overall ? 

I want to start a test session to compare individual experience levels and if there really is a difference. 

 

If it is significant as you say one should reproduce it in a way.