Questions about US Infantry in Game

[waffelmann]

Hello,

I have two questions for the US Infantry uniform specialists:

1.) Why don't the US soldiers have flak vests in the game? I thought they wore these in the Vietnam War and they were useful there too. So why not later?

2.) In the game, the US soldiers are apparently carrying empty shovel bags (at least I think that's what it is)...why is that? Is this a bug in the game or is there something else behind it?

 

Greetings, Alex

[MikeyD]

Vietnam war-style flak vests didn't make it into Europe with the exception, I understand, of some artillery units. And even those units weren't likely to wear them.

By 198O US trenching tools were of the fold-up variety.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125921672774

[waffelmann]

Aaahhh....folding spade! That explains it!

Why were the vests no longer issued? I thought that wasn't so bad after all?

Not great, but not bad against splinters?

[MikeyD]

I'm trying to remember what was found out while researching the title. I can't recall anyone saying why the vests never got issued. It might've simply boiled down to a matter of bean-counting in the Pentagon budget office. The title falls awkwardly between when the army was a conscript/draftee force and when it became a polished 'professional' army. If Battlefront pushes a module into 1984 a LOT of stuff is going to have to change on the American side.

[Splinty]

When I was stationed in Germany for my first tour ('81-'84). There were Viet Nam style flack vests in our supply room, but never once did those vests leave there. As far as I know we only still had them because they hadn't been removed from the books yet.

[waffelmann]

Thanks for the informations
I still don't understand exactly why the vests weren't used anymore, but you don't have to understand everything, do you?!?
Didn't the British use the vests either?

[OldSarge]

From what I remember, the Vietnam era flak vests weren't considered very effective at stopping ballistic rounds, not even from typical military pistols, though it was useful for some types of small shrapnel. We had them, but nobody wore them.

They were produced before the US had established a set of standards for ballistic protection from specific threats that LEO regularly encountered, like 9mm, .38 and.45 cal pistol rounds. It wasn't until the mid-70's that a national standards board finally started adopting performance standards and testing procedures for body armor.

[Combatintman]

13 hours ago, waffelmann said:

Thanks for the informations
I still don't understand exactly why the vests weren't used anymore, but you don't have to understand everything, do you?!?
Didn't the British use the vests either?

Flak vests were widely worn in Northern Ireland but didn't get taken to the Falklands in 1982.  I never saw one the whole time I was in Germany in the 1980s.  They just weren't a thing.  Why?  I have no idea.  The first time I got issued one outside of Northern Ireland was during Gulf War 1 in 1991.

[waffelmann]

9 hours ago, Combatintman said:

They just weren't a thing.  Why?  I have no idea. 

Strange!  But interesting. Thanks!

Edited July 23, 2023 by waffelmann

[Sequoia]

During my time '77 to '80 we usually wore flak vests in the field BUT we were artillery.

['Sapper']

On 7/23/2023 at 7:00 AM, Combatintman said:

Flak vests were widely worn in Northern Ireland but didn't get taken to the Falklands in 1982.  I never saw one the whole time I was in Germany in the 1980s.  They just weren't a thing.  Why?  I have no idea.  The first time I got issued one outside of Northern Ireland was during Gulf War 1 in 1991.

The one and only time I saw British troops wearing flak jackets outside of Ulster, were worn by sentries at HQ 1 BR Corp.  During Exercise Lionheart 84.

[Sgt Joch]

I would guess the reason why vests fell into disuse was based on the Vietnam experience. Even though they were standard issue, the vests were rarely worn by U.S. Army Infantry units in combat as you can see from photos of operations in 65-67. As to why they were not used, the two reasons I see most often is that: 1) they were uncomfortable to wear; and 2) they offered minimal protection since they would not stop a AK-47 round at close range, so were not useful in a typical firefight. 

USMC units were different since apparently they had a standing order to wear the vests.

[womble]

On 7/23/2023 at 7:00 AM, Combatintman said:

Flak vests were widely worn in Northern Ireland but didn't get taken to the Falklands in 1982.  I never saw one the whole time I was in Germany in the 1980s.  They just weren't a thing.  Why?  I have no idea.  The first time I got issued one outside of Northern Ireland was during Gulf War 1 in 1991.

I suspect they weren't taken to the Falklands at least partly because of the appreciation that the PBI was going to have to walk "a fair distance" over "unhelpful" terrain in them, and at that point, they'd just become litter in a Falklands bog... NI operations didn't involve 30 mile a day yomps very often, AIUI.

[Combatintman]

6 minutes ago, womble said:

I suspect they weren't taken to the Falklands at least partly because of the appreciation that the PBI was going to have to walk "a fair distance" over "unhelpful" terrain in them, and at that point, they'd just become litter in a Falklands bog... NI operations didn't involve 30 mile a day yomps very often, AIUI.

The weather was similarly sh1t though ... 

[womble]

2 hours ago, Combatintman said:

The weather was similarly sh1t though ... 

And the frequency of bogs... outside the urban areas, that is.

 

[Sgt Joch]

So, I have been reading the official U.S. Army history on the Vietnam War. Like all U.S. official histories, it is well researched and goes into a lot of detail on tactical battles.

Anyway, I just finished the chapter on the Dak To Battles in November 1967. One thing I found interesting is there there are 8 photos taken of soldiers from the U.S. Army 4th infantry division and 173d Airborne Brigade taken during the operation, either in jungle patrols or during the fighting around Hill 875.

One thing you notice right away is that no one in any of the photos is wearing a flak vest. The history also has no reference or discussion whatsoever as to why the vest was discarded. It certainly was not a supply issue since the U.S. had vast stockpiles of any piece of equipment as the history often points out. It seems to be one of those things which was such common knowledge that no one feels the need to discuss it.

Here is the link:

https://history.army.mil/html/books/091/91-15-1/cmhPub_91-15-1.pdf

(photos are on pages 154 to 180)

[MikeyD]

I recall reading in a Vietnam war memoir (so long ago I forgot from where) that flak vests were despised for being a hazard. Wear them in hot sweaty jungle conditions and the vest fabric soon becomes a veritable petri dish of mold, grime and bacteria. Then, when you get shot, the fabric gets pulled into the body cavity, greatly increasing the chance of infection.

My own speculation on the subject, if the vest could only cause a rifle round to tumble without stopping it that would produce much more grievous wounds. This isn't the first time I've heard of soldiers preferring 'clean' uncomplicated wounds that are treatable.