Withdraw order doesn't work on the first floor of the building,

[Vacillator]

I'm mostly playing PBEM these days, so I'm not sure how these commands fit in there?

[chuckdyke]

7 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

I'm mostly playing PBEM these days, so I'm not sure how these commands fit in there?

Like WEGO they are time savers when you plot large formations.

[MikeyD]

'Test maps' can be problematic testing infantry maneuver because there's often no defilade, no terrain features, no x-tall grass or forest to run to. You're often in full view and rifle rage of the enemy. That's a recipe for the simplest command to go wrong. Someone once asked what's the best way to place infantry in a building. I joking replied that the best spot to place them is behind the building. Because most buildings are as porous to fire as cardboard.

[Vacillator]

9 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Like WEGO they are time savers when you plot large formations.

Yeah but I can't 'instantaneously' pause a unit's move in the middle of a PBEM turn?

Edited March 15, 2023 by Vacillator

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

Yeah but I can't 'instantaneously' pause a unit's move in the middle of a PBEM turn?

At the beginning of a turn. They are definitely in my workflow if you don't want to cancel all of your waypoints.

 

[chuckdyke]

13 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

the best way to place infantry in a building.

As low as possible. Ideally you get a fire position on the 2nd floor and can evade to the first floor out of LOS. Once full contact consider leaving against a human player just a matter of time before your number is up. Top floors for observers but not the most obvious building like a church steeple.  Heinz Severloh got ordered to leave his MG position once his CO saw the Shermans. Against small arms buildings are good.

Edited March 15, 2023 by chuckdyke

[Vacillator]

7 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

At the beginning of a turn.

So that's a pause command from the other menu?  Once I've sent my turn to a PBEM opponent I can't stick another pause in.  Or a withdraw.

[chuckdyke]

12 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

Once I've sent my turn to a PBEM opponent I can't stick another pause in. 

Like talking, you can't put words back into your mouth. Pause is useful say you got carefully plotted waypoints on a road for your convoy of trucks. But see there is an engagement on their destination. Select your convoy by double clicking and press the pause button they won't travel till ready.

[Vacillator]

1 minute ago, chuckdyke said:

Select your convoy by double clicking and press the pause button they won't travel till ready.

In a single player versus AI battle I get this, but I don't think I can do this in a PBEM?  Or can I?  Sorry if I'm banging on here .

[chuckdyke]

26 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

In a single player versus AI battle I get this, but I don't think I can do this in a PBEM?  Or can I?  Sorry if I'm banging on here .

Before you send your turn, it is like plotting any other move. 

[RockinHarry]

7 hours ago, MikeyD said:

'Test maps' can be problematic testing infantry maneuver because there's often no defilade, no terrain features, no x-tall grass or forest to run to. You're often in full view and rifle rage of the enemy. That's a recipe for the simplest command to go wrong. Someone once asked what's the best way to place infantry in a building. I joking replied that the best spot to place them is behind the building. Because most buildings are as porous to fire as cardboard.

exactly. But there´s yet another method. Turn the unit away from the enemy by assigning a half-circle target arc towards the backside of a building and "hide". This keeps the pixeltroopers in, while allowing the enemy to loose LOS/LOF on them. The larger/deeper the building, the better it works usually. Give 1-2 game turns for the units(s) to recover, then turn them around under "hide" again and do what you got to do with them. Plt leader should be at least in vocal C2 range all the time to preserve influence.

[Bulletpoint]

8 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Someone once asked what's the best way to place infantry in a building. I joking replied that the best spot to place them is behind the building. Because most buildings are as porous to fire as cardboard.

That's not true though. Modular buildings offer great cover against regular small arms as long as you have at least 200m distance.

[Bulletpoint]

On 3/14/2023 at 8:58 PM, Chibot Mk IX said:

It is worthy to run a test, to see how a squad is armed with StG44 compared to a SMG squad when shooting a 190m-200m target.

CM weapons have been extensively tested by Drifter Man. Here's the link to his report. One of his surprising findings was that SMGs are quite effective at range and even become slightly more effective when firing at their longest range.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Bulletpoint

[Chibot Mk IX]

11 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

CM weapons have been extensively tested by Drifter Man. Here's the link to his report. One of his surprising findings was that SMGs are quite effective at range and even become slightly more effective when firing at their longest range.

 

 

Thanks for sharing that, I am in the middle of my tests, will read this report later.

 

In the first test I put a 3 men StG44 team and 2 x 3 men SMG team (1 x MP40 team and 1 x PPSh team) on the map, let them target buildings at 190m distance. From the sound effect and ammunition consumption, I found out the StG44 is no peer with SMG on rate of fire. StG44 guys shot the building under single shot mode, SMG are under short burst mode.

 

Need at least two more tests on: 1, let StG44 and SMG team to target unarmed pixeltruppen , and find out how many casualties they can cause in 1-2 min time period 

2, let StG44 and SMG squad shot each other at 190m distance , run the test a couple times, to see which side can win the fire fight and what is the success rate. 

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 3/6/2023 at 6:00 AM, Brille said:

What do you need the "withdraw" order for if I may ask? 

 

I might be proven wrong but as far as I understood it the "withdraw" button is just a shortcut - like button (mostly) for people playing in real time, so they don't have to fiddle in the menu if they simply want to place a squad fast further back.

As far as I know you don't get any advantages from that, nor is it a special move order that overwrites the moral situation of a unit. 

Why not use the "fast" command from the get go? 

OK, it looks like the "withdraw" button (or evade, or whatever that button called) is not equal to "fast". 

run the test # 2 a few more times. withdraw command can ensure the pinned down squad get up and running down stairs in the same tun. A "fast" does not generate a guaranteed retreat. They will be kept at pinned down status on the upper floor for 1-2 more turns with "fast" command.

 

 

[Chibot Mk IX]

12 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

exactly. But there´s yet another method. Turn the unit away from the enemy by assigning a half-circle target arc towards the backside of a building and "hide". This keeps the pixeltroopers in, while allowing the enemy to loose LOS/LOF on them. The larger/deeper the building, the better it works usually. Give 1-2 game turns for the units(s) to recover, then turn them around under "hide" again and do what you got to do with them. Plt leader should be at least in vocal C2 range all the time to preserve influence.

that's a good suggestion, as long as your opponent don't bring up an ISU-152 next turn.

[Chibot Mk IX]

20 hours ago, MikeyD said:

'Test maps' can be problematic testing infantry maneuver because there's often no defilade, no terrain features, no x-tall grass or forest to run to. 

then can you please recommend some maps that can be used as an ideal testing environment? 

[Bulletpoint]

18 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

I found out the StG44 is no peer with SMG on rate of fire. StG44 guys shot the building under single shot mode, SMG are under short burst mode.

It depends on the distance. StG will fire burst mode at shorter ranges. It's not a particular good weapon in CM, as shown in Drifter's test.

[RockinHarry]

13 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

that's a good suggestion, as long as your opponent don't bring up an ISU-152 next turn.

hehe... of course. Method for when the guys in the building received some considerable suppression and player maybe wants moving them out through the backdoor during next few turns. Timing is crucial and as said Plt HQ (or any other taking responsibility like Coy or Bn HQ) should be in C2 to speed up the process.

[Bulletpoint]

7 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

then can you please recommend some maps that can be used as an ideal testing environment? 

Don't bother with trying other maps, because the result will be the same. The game is hardcoded to not allow the withdraw command when you're in the ground floor of a building.

This change was deliberately added a couple of patches ago in order to prevent the AI from running out of buildings when under fire. Before the change, it was often possible to eliminate enemies from buildings simply by suppressing them, and they would eventually trigger the fall back behaviour, which works for the AI just like for the human player.

The AI troops would then run out of the house and often straight into the street and get shot down easily. It made it too easy to clear buildings. And since they were not able to improve the AI behaviour, they instead just disabled the function when inside buildings.

[RockinHarry]

4 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Don't bother with trying other maps, because the result will be the same. The game is hardcoded to not allow the withdraw command when you're in the ground floor of a building.

This change was deliberately added a couple of patches ago in order to prevent the AI from running out of buildings when under fire. Before the change, it was often possible to eliminate enemies from buildings simply by suppressing them, and they would eventually trigger the fall back behaviour, which works for the AI just like for the human player.

The AI troops would then run out of the house and often straight into the street and get shot down easily. It made it too easy to clear buildings. And since they were not able to improve the AI behaviour, they instead just disabled the function when inside buildings.

Wondering BFC didn´t implement the "retreat" order that you can use for scripted AIP. It´s different from player "retreat/fallback" in that it´s beeing covered with a smoke grenade throw and ordered retreat for single pixeltroopers with squad leader bugging out last. Very nice and versatile feature actually.

[Bulletpoint]

Just now, RockinHarry said:

Wondering BFC didn´t implement the "retreat" order that you can use for scripted AIP. It´s different from player "retreat/fallback" in that it´s beeing covered with a smoke grenade throw and ordered retreat for single pixeltroopers with squad leader bugging out last. Very nice and versatile feature actually.

That would be nice to give the withdraw command more functionality than simply being a quick way of issuing a FAST move order. (I still believe it's just a FAST move, with no extra benefits).

[Chibot Mk IX]

21 hours ago, Vacillator said:

I'm mostly playing PBEM these days, so I'm not sure how these commands fit in there?

Battle Technique - Using Listening Halts

Bil's blog mentioned about how to use pause to increase situation awareness for infantry squad/team (also the pause make them rest)

 

https://community.battlefront.com/topic/81192-shoot-n-scoot/

we used to have shoot and scoot in CMx1. 

this topic talks about how to use pause and movement order to setup a "poor man's " shoot n scoot in CMx2

it is very unfortunately all the pic are gone.

 

and

in modern battle shoot and scoot will keep your casualty low. 

Here is an example, a two men infantry team spotted a Javelin. They run towards the BMP-3 and transfer the information to the BMP-3 commander verbally (turned out)

BMP-3 issued a couple waypoints combine with pause order. The purpose of that?  Fire air burst HE to the target then get back to the safety before the Javelin ATGM can finish the lock, then reload and repeat this process.

 

 

or

an ATGM team rush into the fire position, fire the missile then running towards the safety before the enemy retaliate with HE (this is a PBEM game, so I know my opponent is very likely to use area fire next turn)

 

  

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Chibot Mk IX

[RockinHarry]

Just now, Bulletpoint said:

That would be nice to give the withdraw command more functionality than simply being a quick way of issuing a FAST move order. (I still believe it's just a FAST move, with no extra benefits).

you mean player fall back? Yep, fast and face. Fast is the main issue, since fast lets the TacAI choose the most obstacle free terrain/route to anywhere. If there´s a bottleneck (door, hedgerow or wall gap) then weird things do happen.

 

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

modern battle shoot and scoot will keep your casualty low

Thanks for taking the time to post great info my friend. 

I suppose my question boils down not to why I would use Pause (in the orders phase), but how I can use it in the middle of a PBEM turn as suggested earlier in this thread (and actioned via the button Chuckdyke highlighted).  I don't think I can do the latter in a PBEM as it's a pre-ordered feast?