Withdraw order doesn't work on the first floor of the building,

[Chibot Mk IX]

As some of you may know, the withdraw order doesn't work if the infantry units are on the first floor of the building.  It works when the units are stationed on the upper level, the default withdraw order will bring the units into the first floor of the same building. And for the units that are close to the building but outside, the withdraw order will bring them to the closest building first floor. 

 

Note this could causing some issue in urban fighting, especially if you are the defending side.

I just experienced one as in pervious turn, my Volkssturm troops ambushed a squad of Soviet infantry. At the end of the turn, my volkssturm are under heavy PPSh fire. My plan is to bring them out of the building, run safe to the new position across the street. 

 

I hit withdraw, that generate a WP to the first floor, then I issued a fast, hope they will running out the building in time.

 

However, the problem is, after the Volkssturm reach the first floor, the withdraw phase is over. The suppression level made my men pinned down on the first floor. Then in the next three min, they refused to carry out the last leg of maneuver, and be cut down by Soviets small arms fire one by one .  I cannot issue withdraw order because now they are in the first floor..............

 

 

I would say this is a bug. It's very annoying because it will make fighting withdraw in the urban impossible to carry out.   

Also, another annoying part is when enemy bring big gun to area fire the building. If your troops are pinned down on the first floor, then you can do nothing but watch them perish in the constant bombardment. 

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Chibot Mk IX

[RockinHarry]

Sounds like the half measure BFC made to "fix" the "retreat" to odd places crap in previous game version. Pity they didn´t "fix" anything, but just added new issues to game play. If it´s your own scenario creation, I´d try lowering some the Volkssturm´s soft factors, like experience and leader rating. I see it´s "regular" and a +1 leader for squad in question. Maybe green or conscript with -1 leader would react the way you want, but IDK ATM. Where´s this squad´s Plt HQ btw?

[chuckdyke]

6 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

If your troops are pinned down on the first floor,

You can modify the withdraw move like any other. Just drag it to the next building.

 

[chuckdyke]

 

[Chibot Mk IX]

4 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

You can modify the withdraw move like any other. Just drag it to the next building.

 

Yes, so far this is the best option if you expect receiving heavy incoming fire. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for those on the 1st floor.

 

[chuckdyke]

6 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

Yes, so far this is the best option if you expect receiving heavy incoming fire. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for those on the 1st floor.

 

You play RTS? On WEGO my method works fine. First floor too just like any other fast move.

[Chibot Mk IX]

14 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

You play RTS? On WEGO my method works fine. First floor too just like any other fast move.

It's WEGO mode. You cannot generate a withdraw order at first floor. And if the units are pinned down on the first floor, they will ignore the fast order  

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

pinned down on the first floor, they will ignore the fast order 

That is the definition of pinned down that they will refuse orders. 

[chuckdyke]

38 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

It's WEGO mode. You cannot generate a withdraw order at first floor. And if the units are pinned down on the first floor, they will ignore the fast order  

Your unit was rattled and if pinned they stay where they are. Josey Wales did some time ago tests and he explains the soft factors.

 

[Brille]

What do you need the "withdraw" order for if I may ask? 

 

I might be proven wrong but as far as I understood it the "withdraw" button is just a shortcut - like button (mostly) for people playing in real time, so they don't have to fiddle in the menu if they simply want to place a squad fast further back.

As far as I know you don't get any advantages from that, nor is it a special move order that overwrites the moral situation of a unit. 

Why not use the "fast" command from the get go? 

In the older games you had a dedicated withdraw button that came with its advantages and disadvantages. 

The advantages were that you had no or only a short delay till the execution of that order and that they would perform it even if they were in a moral situation (pinned, shaken). The disadvantage however is that these troops would have a big impact on their morale, even leading to them getting panicked for some time... So it only should be used wisely. 

In Cmx2 however it is just an automatically placed "fast" command, if I got that one right. 

Not addressing the problem itself here I know.... 

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, Brille said:

Why not use the "fast" command from the get go? 

His unit was 'Rattled' and the behaviour of the unit was explained by Josey Wales some time ago. Rattled units will go for cover and will probably refuse orders to leave their cover. 

[Brille]

34 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

His unit was 'Rattled' and the behaviour of the unit was explained by Josey Wales some time ago. Rattled units will go for cover and will probably refuse orders to leave their cover. 

That one I know. But would it be any different with the "withdraw" button?

My doubt is that regardless if you select "fast" manually or click the "withdraw" button, the unit wouldn't move if pinned. 

So why use it then? 

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, Brille said:

So why use it then? 

People don't know when to use it. With Rattled units it can be demonstrated that they don't reliably follow orders. My OK units on the 2nd floor go to the first floor. OK, Cautious, Nervous units do this ten times out of ten. I found Josey Wales tests to be correct. See Cautious and Nervous as warnings. Like Tiring when you move units during the next turn they will go quick instead of fast.

Edited March 6, 2023 by chuckdyke

[RockinHarry]

8 hours ago, Brille said:

What do you need the "withdraw" order for if I may ask? 

 

I might be proven wrong but as far as I understood it the "withdraw" button is just a shortcut - like button (mostly) for people playing in real time, so they don't have to fiddle in the menu if they simply want to place a squad fast further back.

As far as I know you don't get any advantages from that, nor is it a special move order that overwrites the moral situation of a unit. 

Why not use the "fast" command from the get go? 

In the older games you had a dedicated withdraw button that came with its advantages and disadvantages. 

The advantages were that you had no or only a short delay till the execution of that order and that they would perform it even if they were in a moral situation (pinned, shaken). The disadvantage however is that these troops would have a big impact on their morale, even leading to them getting panicked for some time... So it only should be used wisely. 

In Cmx2 however it is just an automatically placed "fast" command, if I got that one right. 

Not addressing the problem itself here I know.... 

Exactly. Basically it´s "fast" +"face" combined with a short cut. Whether there´s any further attribute applied to "withdraw", IDK. (scripted withdraw adds a throw smoke and a certain order for single ptroopers moving off to associated waypoint). From my experience if units get heavy suppression they´d go to basement, but very rarely "rout" out of the building entirely (anymore). If these units (no matter current morale state unless shaken/panicked) reached the basement I try giving them a hide + very short 360° target arc order, so they could bits of calm down if enemy fires allow. If already very bad morale state (shaken, panicked) I try move a HQ to influence/rally range. Key in these situations IMO is not letting it come that far. Better move an unreliable unit (soft factors) off to a switch position, before it gets into a ****ty situation. Anyway, buildings are crap cover in CM and are only of some use if there´s additional cover from the ground terrain mesh. (a berm or rubble piles created in map editor). Or a wall immediately in front of it so a unit in the buildings basement can benefit from it. (breaks LOS/LOF when it was previously in 2nd floor or higher).

If a unit has fairly good soft factors (like ChiBot´s Volkssturm, regular, +1 morale) then it can be counterproductive for a unit to attempt moving away from a potential untenable position. They expose themselves longer and get shot to pieces when heavy SMG wielding russians get close enough. In case of Volkssturm it would also be more realistic to set them to low morale and green/conscript experience. I´d handle their staying power by giving a good leader (+1 or +2) or at least having one in Plt HQ which then should be in C2.

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 3/6/2023 at 6:00 AM, Brille said:

What do you need the "withdraw" order for if I may ask? 

 

I might be proven wrong but as far as I understood it the "withdraw" button is just a shortcut - like button (mostly) for people playing in real time, so they don't have to fiddle in the menu if they simply want to place a squad fast further back.

As far as I know you don't get any advantages from that, nor is it a special move order that overwrites the moral situation of a unit. 

Why not use the "fast" command from the get go? 

In the older games you had a dedicated withdraw button that came with its advantages and disadvantages. 

The advantages were that you had no or only a short delay till the execution of that order and that they would perform it even if they were in a moral situation (pinned, shaken). The disadvantage however is that these troops would have a big impact on their morale, even leading to them getting panicked for some time... So it only should be used wisely. 

In Cmx2 however it is just an automatically placed "fast" command, if I got that one right. 

Not addressing the problem itself here I know.... 

You may have a point as I remember someone else mentioned the same thing before ( withdraw order = a fast order). If it is true then the whole issue become “the ground floor is a no way out death trap.” I can do some test and hopefully get a conclusion tomorrow.

 

Meanwhile, here is a test that proves the ground floor is a trap.

See test #1

Put a German SS pioneer sqd in the ground floor. 180m away 3 x Soviet SMG sqd area fire the ground floor. So at the end the turn (28:00) the SS sqd was pinned down. Since I cannot issue a withdraw order, I put a fast order to get them outside the building.

 

 

But 27:00, they didn't move

 

 

Same as 26:00, 25:00, 24:00.

 

 

Not until 23:00 when Sov SMG squad running out of ammunition , did the SS squad finally pull out

 

 

 

 

*******************************************************************************************************************************************

 

On the contrary

On 3/5/2023 at 8:09 AM, chuckdyke said:

Your unit was rattled and if pinned they stay where they are. Josey Wales did some time ago tests and he explains the soft factors.

 

Test #2

Put SS squad on the upper floor, same configuration , 3 x SMG sqd area fire the upper floor at 180m away. At the end of the turn the SS sqd was pinned down.

I issued the withdraw order , drag it outside the building (note that as soon as I hit withdraw, the pinned down text disappeared, but the suppression level is still there) , hit start.

 

In less than 5 seconds , the first pixeltruppen run down the stair, then followed by 2^nd, 3^rd. By the end of the turn, everyone gets out of building and is out of SMG sqds’ LOS completely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Chibot Mk IX

[Chibot Mk IX]

and 

Test #3

 

Put the SS squad in the open , one Soviet SMG squad area fire (I have to reduce the SMG squad to 1, because SMGs are OP even at 180m distance, with two SMG squads, there will be no survivor after turn 1)

So, I issued the withdraw order, same as test 2, pinned down text disappear although the suppression level is still there.

 

And the remaining survivor of the SS squad successfully pull out at the end of the turn 2.

 

 

 

 

So, see the difference?

[Chibot Mk IX]

4 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

I have to reduce the SMG squad to 1, because SMGs are OP even at 180m distance, with two SMG squads, there will be no survivor after turn 1

 

 

 

A little bit OT. It has been discussed many times, but I still want to mention this again. SMG has both high rate of fire and high accuracy to hit the target as far as 190m. 

 

It is worthy to run a test, to see how a squad is armed with StG44 compared to a SMG squad when shooting a 190m-200m target.

[Vacillator]

So I'm probably missing the point here.  All I can see in the Manual is

By shift-clicking on the map, AI Groups can be ordered to Withdraw towards their movement destination. Vehicles will move in Reverse to the destination, while infantry will leapfrog back while turning around to face behind them.

But I don't think this is what you're talking about?

[chuckdyke]

35 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

So I'm probably missing the point here.  All I can see in the Manual is

By shift-clicking on the map, AI Groups can be ordered to Withdraw towards their movement destination. Vehicles will move in Reverse to the destination, while infantry will leapfrog back while turning around to face behind them.

But I don't think this is what you're talking about?

Rattled units they will refuse some orders. Shaken the next step you can't order at all but they stay under cover. They leave cover in a panicked state again you don't have any control at all. Play a Dept Repaid and you see the StG44 is superior than Soviet submachine gun units.

Edited March 14, 2023 by chuckdyke

[Vacillator]

16 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Rattled units they will refuse some orders. Shaken the next step you can't order at all but they stay under cover. They leave cover in a panicked state again you don't have any control at all.

Yes, but a 'withdraw' command?  For me that's a manual set a path backwards or whatever, AFAIK I have no quick fire 'withdraw' command, or do I?  I play only WEGO if that matters.

[chuckdyke]

5 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

Yes, but a 'withdraw' command? 

I think he means the evade button, it is good because it goes for the nearest cover without you looking for it. by plotting and eyeballing. A Rattled unit will refuse to leave it and this is exactly what happens. Evade you need your unit under cover asap that's IMHO the purpose of that button.

Edited March 14, 2023 by chuckdyke

[Vacillator]

1 minute ago, chuckdyke said:

Evade you need your unit under cover asap that's IMHO the purpose of that button.

I'll have to look for that button.  I've never seen it yet.  It's not specific to a unit in a building on an upper floor is it?

[chuckdyke]

31 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

I'll have to look for that button. 

It is on the Command Panel. Green Button is for Pause, Red Button to Cancel the Red Button with the Cross is what I call Evade. He is using a mod they are all red. Next to the left of the move panel.

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by chuckdyke

[Vacillator]

19 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

It is on the Command Panel. Green Button is for Pause, Red Button to Cancel the Red Button with the Cross is what I call Evade. He is using a mod they are all red. Next to the left of the move panel.

Wow, in my *coughs* long CM career (well not quite 3 years actually ) I have never used those buttons.  If I set a pause it has been in the orders phase using the options to the right.  Thanks for pointing this out, wonder whether it would have made a difference.

As for the mod, it looks like JuJu's UI mod (now in the care of Ithikial).  I am also using this and don't like the look of the games without it.

[chuckdyke]

3 hours ago, Vacillator said:

I have never used those buttons.

They simulate some important functions. Like the hand signals of a leader. Pause is 'Halt' the next is Cancel useful if you have plenty of Waypoints. Evade is Fall Back the unit falls back to cover. In the open I highlight it and change it into Slow simulates rolling away from danger. Also the Combat Stress factor plays a role. They work when the unit is OK, Cautious or Nervous. Rattled he goes for cover and stays there till he is back to nervous.

Edited March 15, 2023 by chuckdyke