CanuckGamer Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 My friends and I have been playing CM for 20 years back to CM1 when there was a CM game in Africa. We think that CM is the gold standard when it comes to tactical games. However something that I think could be improved is AT guns. For example the feared 88 MM. There are few scenarios in any of the CM games where the map is large enough that an 88 can out range a tank. Historically the 88 could take out Allied tanks even before they could get in to range. Secondly my experience is that all AT guns are extremely vulnerable to enemy tanks no matter what kind of terrain or cover they are in. It seems they almost always get knocked out before even getting off a shot. My friend and I are currently playing the TWC Nijmegen Finale scenario in CMBN and I've lost 3 AT guns including an 88 without any of them getting a shot off. It is a small map with short sight lines so they are basically useless. All the AT guns were in either foxholes, or the v shaped sandbags. Enemy infantry and tanks don't seem to have an problem spotting AT guns. I can understand the 88 with it's high profile but the other AT guns have lower profiles. Maybe I am employing AT guns incorrectly although like I said I've been playing for 20 years so I've tried everything. Just a note about this scenario. There is another scenario Nijmegen Road Bridge is very similar to this one. In fact even though I am playing this scenario I can't find TWC Nigmegen in my list of scenarios. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 is your opponent area targetting the ground where your AT gun is? Typically AT guns will spot tanks first and if they dont get suppressed by MG or cannon fire in return then the AT gun will start landing shots. Close range is not a survivable environment for AT guns. The Nijmegan map doesnt have long lines of sight. I personally have found at guns in trenches to be absolutely ridiculously strong. They are very difficult to kill. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckGamer Posted January 31, 2023 Author Share Posted January 31, 2023 Thanks Artkin. There were trenches in this scenario and I had infantry in them. They still got their butts kicked by Shermans and infantry. The next scenario I will place any AT's in trenches to see how they fare. I'm actually playing another PBEM game with a friend in Cold War and it has the largest map I have seen in any of the CM games. The scenario is Czechmate but lots of trees. Now if there was a big map like that for one of the CM WW2 games with lines of sights then it would replicate how deadly the 88's were. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 minute ago, CanuckGamer said: Thanks Artkin. There were trenches in this scenario and I had infantry in them. They still got their butts kicked by Shermans and infantry. The next scenario I will place any AT's in trenches to see how they fare. I'm actually playing another PBEM game with a friend in Cold War and it has the largest map I have seen in any of the CM games. The scenario is Czechmate but lots of trees. Now if there was a big map like that for one of the CM WW2 games with lines of sights then it would replicate how deadly the 88's were. There are plenty you just have to go searching for them I know Operation Linnett has some pretty good lines of sight but thats a "smaller" large map 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 Keep in mind that in some scenarios the Attacker/Defender may already have some intel of enemy positions before game starts. This will lead to enemy firing on your positions (that you think are hidden) at ranges. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brille Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 If the AT gun didnt even got a shot of first then you either have really bad luck (maybe the enemy is doing recon by shooting) or you have chosen the wrong hideout for the gun itself. The at gun should always be first to spot because of the concealment it hopefully is in and the small profile. Bigger AT guns (even the 8, 8cm in Pak configuration) are hard to hide and can be spotted from quite a distance. Smaller at guns like the 57mm gun or Pak 40 are better for an ambush. Though I must admit that I have the feeling that at guns are easily spotted as soon as they have fired a shot...maybe a bit to easily. But that's just me. Once spotted though it is logically that the gun will have a hard time to survive... Stealth is its main protection after all. So if the enemy has the right tools for the job (either guns of his own or artillery/mortars) it is just a matter of time. The question is how experienced your crews are because if they are motivated and high experienced they can be quite sturdy, even when they take losses. (at least till the gun itself isn't damaged). Only advises I could give you (though you probably already know them) is to get the at guns more to the side of an enemy approach. Spotting at the front of an enemy tank is the strongest, while it isn't as good to the sides and back. Try to keep enemy tanks closed, either by small arms fire or with artillery. Position your guns wisely. Don't go for maximum visibility on top of a mountain to observe all. Choose one or two small lanes it can cover (hard point). You may not see and fire on much of the enemy but also can he shoot with only a part of his forces at you. Put them in good concealment. If you put them in forests make sure that it has good undergrowth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 Th 88 Imo is overrated too high a silhouette. At the scenarios a six pdr is more effective. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 I once did a simple test where I advanced a tank slowly towards various AT guns in different terrain, and as far as I remember, there's a "magic cutoff point" where the guns are essentially invisible no matter how long you spend trying to spot them. But when you move closer than that, the guns are very quickly spotted. I think it was around 500m for "regular" units at full daylight visibility. So I'm thinking that in your case, it's probably just a matter of too little distance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 This issue dovetails nicely into the design choices made by many (not all) designers who deliberately create terrain in which one has to get close to an enemy unit (under 500m and often under 300m or less before one can get LOS and fire at enemy units. One sees this in maps which have objectives lower than surrounding terrain or a berm surrounding the objective. Not a criticism of the game itself, but an observation of what many designer do. Some of the better designers like GeorgeMC have done a great job in making maps that have 2Km-3Km LOS opportunities so that longer range weapons (esp in modern titles) can be used as advertised. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 It has always been a problem in CM that when a unit moves into LOS of a stationary enemy unit the moving unit is very much able to win a duel. Both spotting and hit chances are affected. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 (edited) So, what you're really running into is the problem that the 8.8cm Flak is actually pretty awful. It absolutely would not be a fun thing to be shot by, but the system itself is large and immobile, and so is extremely visible, and highly vulnerable to HE in any form, especially indirect fires. It earned a reputation in North Africa, partly because it was the biggest boom, but also because it was an expediency - there wasn't much else that could penetrate the thickest British armour. It was still not a particularly efficient system, and required entire tactics to be built around it's limitations - hit and run, with the "run" being into range of the static line of 88mm AT guns. Aside from the power of the thing, the other advantage it has is range. To take advantage of that requires long lines of sight, possibly over multiple km, which would be available in the desert. Notably, it's something that's firmly unavailable in Normandy. The 88mm in Normandy is powerful, sure, but it's a liability. Short sight lines, a massive body and immobile means that there's just no way to hide, and nowhere to run. AT guns are tricky to use. They're ambush predators, and you typically want to use them in dispersed pairs, such that a single tank can't suppress both at one time. Ideally, one can get a flank shot whilst the other is being engaged, but that's not always possible. You do want to limber and unlimber them, and understand how and when to move them. Practice is genuinely useful here. Edited January 31, 2023 by domfluff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 "Oh please don't mind me" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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